Help with Stearman USN scheme and markings.

[Bradleygolding]

I just recently became the custodian of this Stearman and am seeking some info about the accuracy of the scheme and markings.

Photo : http://www.stearman.net/fusetalk4/forum ... &forumid=1

http://s284.photobucket.com/user/bradle ... g/library/

The NASM provided the info taken on charge by the Navy in Aug 42 at NRAB Detroit (Grosse Ile) and later 44/45 to NAPT Norman. It has the Blind Flying Hood fittings in the rear cockpit so I am informed that it was an Instrument Trainer.

The scheme (yellow with red bands) seems right for post the removal of red centres from national insignia in mid 42 and pre the change to green bands for instrument training in Feb 43, but what about the number 210?

Here in Australia this is derived from the last three digits of the Service serial no, but not in the U.S.?

Any ideas?

Also the aircraft has the name CFB Trenton on the side as well. There is a Trenton next to Grosse Ile, but CFB is Canadian Forces Base I think which is odd.

So if anyone has any ideas please share, and even better photos of Stearman at Grosse Ile or Norman.

Thanks

Steve.

Edited with new link.

Last edited by Bradleygolding on Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[jdvoss]

Steve,

The internet link you posted is not pulling anything up for me...

John

www.fuselagecodes.com

[Bradleygolding]

Interesting site there John. Is there one like that for the Navy that you know of.

I will try another source for the photo.

Cheers

Steve

[Dan Jones]

Sharp looking bird! Is that a -670 or a Jacobs?

Probably the best guy to talk to is Ken Wilson with the SRA - he's the official historian and is a wealth of knowledge. He filled in many of the gaps in the history of my N2S-3. I don't have his contact info on me but a quick query over on the SRA board will produce it.

Most Stearmans fitted with an instrument hood weren't used for instrument training per se, but rather for the instructors to stay current. Most stations had one or two setup like that.

Have fun!
Dan

[jdvoss]

Steve:

the large numerics on the fuselage sides of training aircraft were locally assigned sequential numbers and there was no relation to the actual s/n. According the book "U.S. Naval Air Stations of WWII, Vol 1 and 2" by Shettle, Grosse Ile operated 210 N2S's and Norman operated a staggering 435 N2S's! I've attached a photo taken at NAS Norman of a number of N2S's all clustered in a hangar. Note lack of any colored bands on the aircraft. The display of the US national insignia on the fuselage was sporadic on most of the naval training aircraft (e.g. N2S, N3N, N2T, SNV, SNJ, et.al.).

The expression "CFB Trenton" is confusing indeed. No doubt refers to a RCAF field.

[Bradleygolding]

Sharp looking bird! Is that a -670 or a Jacobs?

Probably the best guy to talk to is Ken Wilson with the SRA - he's the official historian and is a wealth of knowledge. He filled in many of the gaps in the history of my N2S-3. I don't have his contact info on me but a quick query over on the SRA board will produce it.

Most Stearmans fitted with an instrument hood weren't used for instrument training per se, but rather for the instructors to stay current. Most stations had one or two setup like that.

Have fun!
Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks, it's a 670, a Jacobs might come later! I am already in contact with Ken and he has been most helpful in confirming that the basic colour scheme is correct for Aug 42, but there are still gaps hence my post here and on Flypast. He explained the instrument trainer use by instructors but still called it an instrument trainer.

Cheers

Steve

[Bradleygolding]

Steve:

the large numerics on the fuselage sides of training aircraft were locally assigned sequential numbers and there was no relation to the actual s/n. According the book "U.S. Naval Air Stations of WWII, Vol 1 and 2" by Shettle, Grosse Ile operated 210 N2S's and Norman operated a staggering 435 N2S's! I've attached a photo taken at NAS Norman of a number of N2S's all clustered in a hangar. Note lack of any colored bands on the aircraft. The display of the US national insignia on the fuselage was sporadic on most of the naval training aircraft (e.g. N2S, N3N, N2T, SNV, SNJ, et.al.).

The expression "CFB Trenton" is confusing indeed. No doubt refers to a RCAF field.


[img]http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr240/jdvoss/NAS%20Norman%20N2S_zps43nek6wl.jpg[/i
mg]

Jdvoss,

Great photo. I have vol 1 of Shettle but not 2. Can't find a reference to 210 Stearmans. Only nearly 200 basic trainers at the end of 42, and 250 Stearmans by June 44. The lack of coloured bands in the photo is interesting because it was only in Feb 43 that the all red banding was changed to represent different aircraft uses. So they only lasted a few months.

Cheers

Steve

[Dan Jones]

Hi Steve,

Is that the correct BuNo for your machine, 6488? My N2S-3 (BuAer 05284) was also built in Aug '42. She spent most of the war in Memphis and later at NAS Bunker Hill in Peru, Indiana. The -670 is a good engine (tough too). Enjoy!

Dan

[Bradleygolding]

Hi Dan,

The BuNo is 05314, and the serial is 75-6488. Which should be on the tail? I have been wondering.

Steve

[JohnB]

The N2S in your photo has a non-standard designation on the tail..."VN2S".
The aircraft in wartime did not carry the designation VN2S-3 (emphasis added).

As we all know, US registrations begin with "N"...as do USN training aircraft in the pre-1962 designation system. The aircraft type is painted on the vertical stabilizer.
When wartime training aircraft that begin with an N designation are restored, primarily N2S and N3N types, the owners have a problem...current FAA regulations say you can't have another "N" designation on the aircraft...it might be mistaken for the "N number".

I have several friends with restored USN-marked Stearmans...to avoid trouble with authorities, they put a V in front of the tail designation...thus a N2S becomes a VN2S on the modern-day restoration.

I suppose any letter would do in front of the tail N to keep the FAA happy, but all my friends have a "V"...probably to suggest the "V" for VIP aircraft prefix used in the post-1962 designation system (i.e. VC-137). To be technically correct, "VIP" USN aircraft in the pre-1962 system were so designated by a "Z" suffix...so a VIP Stearman would have been a N2S-3Z.

(Myself, if I were lucky enough to have this "problem", would choose an "R" which in the 1931-1962 USN system meant transport.
So I'd have a transport modified Stearman, a "RN2S"...which in reality did not exist, but it 's (slightly) more authentic than the spurious V that many use. And it would still keep the FAA happy.)

However, I have also seen examples where this is not the case...where a N2S retains its correct designation on the tail.
Again, it's back to the FAA. I've been told that some local FAA offices are much more strict in enforcing this literal interpretation of the rules than others.
If I had an aircraft, I'd put the V (or other letter) on with a self adhesive letter...and remove it once the local FAA inspector had signed off my restoration.

Last edited by JohnB on Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Dan Jones]

I guess we have near sister airplanes! The correct number for the fin would be your BuNo, 05314, but although the N2S in the foreground in the above photo shows a five digit number on the fin I have a photo of a factory fresh airplane from the same block as yours and mine that wears only a four digit number, so most likely your airplane would have worn "5314". The Boeing number, the 75- number, would never be displayed in your paint scheme. Send me a PM and I'll send you some other stuff when I get back home. I think those two airplanes were from the first batch of N2S-3's ordered, but I'd have to crack a book to be sure of that.

The "VN2S-3" is incorrect as John points out, to avoid confusion with it's US civil N number. The "V" that guys have used to mask it was also the USN designator for a "heavier than air" unit, such as VMF-214, or VB-6, etc. Here's an interesting link that explains it pretty well: http://thanlont.blogspot.ca/2010/04/wha ... d-for.html

My airplane, not being set up as an instrument trainer, was just overall yellow with black markings and the blue and white round stars with no bars, but we're not there just yet.

Keep in touch.

Dan Jones

[jdvoss]

Steve:

Attached is a wartime photo (ca.1943) of a N2S-2 @ NAS Corpus Christi, Texas. The aircraft is classicly marked in standard USN paint scheme and should answer your questions as to location of s/n and aircraft type ID placement. The locally assigned sequential number (401) and USN Bu No. are evident and as you can see have no relation to one another.

The description that JohnB gave above about the use of the leading "V" on VN2S is most descriptive and accurate !!

[marine air]

The former NAS Memphis (Millington, Tn.) still has the old wooden hangar built during WW II. It is now a recreation center. Pictures I've seen of it during wartime indicate that when they had the Stearman's crammed in the hangar it was to avoid storms. Otherwise they stayed on the flightline.

[Bradleygolding]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, it looks like I need to do a little re umbering on the tail. I will post a photo when completed.

Now on the fuselagecodes.com site there is mention of aircraft that were used for the training of RAF pilots would often have the letter B in front of the fuselage number. That site is concerned with the Army Airforce but I did wonder if the Navy might have done something similar as well?

Lastly that photo at Norman. On the NASNorman site there is one from a different angle and the caption is something like 35 Stearmans packed in 15 mins to avoid a storm July 43. Quite some job that!

Thanks again,

Steve

[jdvoss]

Steve:

I have never seen any letter codes used on naval training aircraft (Primary, Basic or Advanced). I have indeed seen Advanced Fighter Trainers(e.g. F4F, F6F, etc) displaying a large letter and number (e.g. "G 20"). I have never attempted to document them as I believe that it was a very non-structured system with aircraft from the same base displaying a variety of letters. When I complete the USAAF codes perhaps I'll attempt to research the navy / marine system.


Putting all the Stearman's (and like fabric covered aircraft) into a covered building was done at NAS Norman as well as other fields in the mid-west. That area is known for torrential storms with baseball size hail and furious winds. Just last week Oklahoma and Texas were hit with severe storms that were very devastating.


Attached is a photo taken at Enid Army Air Field, Oklahoma 1943. It's a Cessna UC-78 that go hit possibly while still in the air.