Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:04 pm
We seem to say it each year but this one really was better than the last. It's our 5th year of putting on the camp with the Collings foundation and we have figured out and fine tuned a good working formula.
One new twist this year is that instead of the B-24 we used the B-17 for the first time. Both aircraft are wonderful to use but each has their pros and cons.
Things started off with the arrival of the Arizona Ground crew Living History Unit. These guys are simply the best and they give Bomber Camp it heart and soul.
Here is Mark enjoying a morning canteen cup of Joe
Lots of other folks show up to help out too as there is a massive amount of prep work to make Bomber Camp happen.
Here is Scott working hard to keep the vehicles up and running. It takes a lot to maintain 70 year old vehicles and equipment. Only two 6 volt batteries and two fuel pumps this year plus the usual oil, filters and coolant, not bad.
Scott worked closely with the 2nd Lt Mitch who became the motor pool Officer. Mitch changed the fluids, starters and fuel pumps with Scott to keep the motor puddle up and running. Well done guys. The staff car and the Jeep were down but they brought them back up.
Ground school begins where we teach the basics of Radio, Navigation, Bombardier and Gunnery.
Murph on Gunnery
Then it is off to the gunnery range for training in the basic WWII weapons. They try out the 45, Carbine, Garand and then the M11 gunnery training shotgun first hand held and then turret mounted on the Chevy E-5 turret training truck. Two students hit the clay from the truck this year. Its a new record.
Here is one of the campers being instructed by Stucky on how to avoid M1 thumb!
And then the students finish off with the ANM2 50 cal. Happiness is a hot 50 and she IS hot, oh baby!
A happy class of gunnery students
After the troop returns from the gunnery range Ricky makes a good GI dinner and then we have a little social event. The pin up girls have been coming to our event for a while now but this year they had a surprise for us and they wanted to do a USO type of a show. How could we refuse so we set up a bomb trailer as a stage in front of the Harpoon and a few vehicles.
Ken was the MC and started off the show with Bob Handel. Bob was a Bomber (Navy term for Bombardier) and gunner in the PB4Y-2. He saw a lot of action in the Pacific and he and his crew has the distinction of sinking 7 Japanese ships with 6 bombs on one mission. Bob gave a talk to the students like he had just returned from the theatre. It was awesome. Thanks for your service Bob.
After Bob the gals came up and graced the stage for photo ops and some great singing.
One of the photo ops involved twin 50's and the pinup gals. Did I mention earlier that happiness is a hot 50 and she IS hot...
The poor motor puddle gang had it pretty rough.
Thanks so much to all of the wonderful pinup gals who came out to have fun with us. This event has turned into something real special and it is precisely the effort and participation of all of the volunteers that makes it so special. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Day two begins with crew training for the upcoming mission. They check out the crew positions in the aircraft and if they want to ride in the ball turret they can. Just one of the many unique features that we offer is to be able to experience things that can't be done elsewhere. Once in a lifetime experiences are what we do best, over and over.
We opened up the tail turret for the campers too. Normally the tail is closed off on 909 but we removed the PX gear and made floorboards so you could crawl back to the tail gunner's position. We also freed up the guns so they could be manipulated just like they used to.
Ken checks out the students in the operation of the Sperry ball turret. The idea is to give the student specific training in the ball turret so when they try it out in flight it is familiar to them. Unfortunately the Ball turret in 909 was in need of some serious work so it was not fully operational for the flight. Those that wanted to try it out were able to do so without the turret powered up. Maybe next year the ball turret will be all ready to run.
This shot by Craig reminded me of that wartime Life Magazine spread on the B-17. We need a fuel and oil truck and we can recreate this shot. Next year.
It was purely accidental but the similarities between the two shots are really cool. The Life image was stolen from here: http://jantelagom.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/b-17-08.jpg
The good Norden sight and stabilizer gets installed just before the mission. It lives a comfortable life otherwise. This sight has dropped bombs from a Beech AT-11, B-25J, a B-24J and now a B-17G.
When was the last time an M-5 bomb trailer was backed under a B-17G? This was real cool to see for sure. It fit with a few inches to spare just like it is supposed to.
The Ground Crew loaded 5 250 pound bombs in 21 minutes. Not sure how long it took back in WWII but that seems like a quick turn to me
Mac wanted to help load bombs too. Man is he strong or maybe he was just trying to impress the pinup gals? Hmmm...
Then the guns are set up in their mounts and installed. What was really cool was that the guns were a matching pair from WWII that were manufactured by Frigidair.
They were 302 serial numbers apart. Are machine gun serial numbers different than Skyraider carb serial numbers 'cuz I love serial numbers...
The guns were under the care of Kevin who was amazing to work with. This guy is great and I wish I had more time to listen to his stories and learn from him. Any guy who has a 50 cal ruptured case extractor on his chest is OK in my book. Wow this guy has been there and done that. Any movie with big Hollywood stars and machine guns will have his name in the credits.
This photo does not convey what a fun, crazy SOB he is. Thanks for the fun and all of your help Kevin. Where can we buy your calendars? I want to subscribe!
With all of the guns, bombs and crew all ready; off we go
Here I am doing training with the Norden in the nose. One of the benefits of the B-17 is the roomy nose which allows me to sit on the ammo boxes and let the student sit in the bombardiers position. This way they can look through the sight and actually release the bombs under my supervision. In the B-24 it is so cramped that my fat backside fills up the nose. It is a one person thing with the bombsight in the B-24.
The nose of the B-24 is so small that i was not able to use the X-1 reflex sight on the Norden head because it hits the turret support structure. The Collings B-24J originally was a lend lease aircraft for the British and then the Indian Air Force so it never came with a Norden. It had a Sperry T-1 sight and parts of its mount are still there. The Norden was installed for the restoration but I think it sits too high.
The B-17 is definitely my choice for Bomber Camp as it is perfect for the students to be able to cozy up to the Norden and see what it was like to find a target through the optics. Not easy from 2000 feet let alone 20,000.
The optics of the nose bowl in 909 do not help much as they are wavy and it is real hard to see the target without looking through the flat optical glass for the bombsight.
This is Brink who is wearing his flight suit from the Navy. The last time he wore it was when he was flying P2V Neptunes. He did a great job and dropped his bombs closest to the target
Here is Brinks hit. Just in the middle of the pickup truck is our target. It is a pickle barrel (so maybe it is a wine barrel but we will call it a pickle barrel anyway). I am sure some of you know the story but just in case: In WWII it was said that the Norden Bombsight could hit a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet. The legend goes on to say that at a press conference Carl Norden was asked if his bombsight could actually hit a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet to which Norden replied 'yes, if you tell me which pickle you want me to hit'.
I love this story which is why you will find a pickle barrel in the middle of our target to honor Mr. Norden. The reality is that the pickle barrel is probably the safest spot since that is what we are aiming for!
After working hard to get everyone in and out of the ball turret Ken comes up front to check out the Bombsight while we are returning to base.
Happiness is also a warm Norden with spinning gyros and warm shells on the floor
Another cool serial number thing of sorts is that most of the brass we shot up was dated 1943 and 1944. I'll be right back as I feel the need to go wash my hands.
The crew shot of a happy bunch of campers, class of 44-5
Thanks to Rob Coillings and the Collings Foundation for letting us bring our crazy Bomber Camp idea to reality with the Collings Aircraft.
To all of the volunteers: Thanks for all of your help and support in making Bomber Camp such a special event. You guys and gals make this one heck of an event and there are many campers out there who thank you too.
You all can help too by sending anyone who might want to try Bomber Camp our way. As long as we have people wanting to go we will be able to put it on each year.
The photos on this thread were made possible by: Jim Dunn, Jim Harley, Craig, Scott, Ken and many others. Thank you all for sharing your work with us all.
Here is a youtube video shot by Gene Norman of the last salvo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWVa92Gstg
This is Jerry, a great Beech pilot, who is flying our C-45H as the photo ship.
And a special thanks to the Arizona Ground Crew Living History Unit. The best bunch of guys you could ever imagine who bring history alive. You all really are the heart and soul of Bomber Camp. Well done guys.
You have certainly earned a rest. Sleep well!
One new twist this year is that instead of the B-24 we used the B-17 for the first time. Both aircraft are wonderful to use but each has their pros and cons.
Things started off with the arrival of the Arizona Ground crew Living History Unit. These guys are simply the best and they give Bomber Camp it heart and soul.
Here is Mark enjoying a morning canteen cup of Joe
Lots of other folks show up to help out too as there is a massive amount of prep work to make Bomber Camp happen.
Here is Scott working hard to keep the vehicles up and running. It takes a lot to maintain 70 year old vehicles and equipment. Only two 6 volt batteries and two fuel pumps this year plus the usual oil, filters and coolant, not bad.
Scott worked closely with the 2nd Lt Mitch who became the motor pool Officer. Mitch changed the fluids, starters and fuel pumps with Scott to keep the motor puddle up and running. Well done guys. The staff car and the Jeep were down but they brought them back up.
Ground school begins where we teach the basics of Radio, Navigation, Bombardier and Gunnery.
Murph on Gunnery
Then it is off to the gunnery range for training in the basic WWII weapons. They try out the 45, Carbine, Garand and then the M11 gunnery training shotgun first hand held and then turret mounted on the Chevy E-5 turret training truck. Two students hit the clay from the truck this year. Its a new record.
Here is one of the campers being instructed by Stucky on how to avoid M1 thumb!
And then the students finish off with the ANM2 50 cal. Happiness is a hot 50 and she IS hot, oh baby!
A happy class of gunnery students
After the troop returns from the gunnery range Ricky makes a good GI dinner and then we have a little social event. The pin up girls have been coming to our event for a while now but this year they had a surprise for us and they wanted to do a USO type of a show. How could we refuse so we set up a bomb trailer as a stage in front of the Harpoon and a few vehicles.
Ken was the MC and started off the show with Bob Handel. Bob was a Bomber (Navy term for Bombardier) and gunner in the PB4Y-2. He saw a lot of action in the Pacific and he and his crew has the distinction of sinking 7 Japanese ships with 6 bombs on one mission. Bob gave a talk to the students like he had just returned from the theatre. It was awesome. Thanks for your service Bob.
After Bob the gals came up and graced the stage for photo ops and some great singing.
One of the photo ops involved twin 50's and the pinup gals. Did I mention earlier that happiness is a hot 50 and she IS hot...
The poor motor puddle gang had it pretty rough.
Thanks so much to all of the wonderful pinup gals who came out to have fun with us. This event has turned into something real special and it is precisely the effort and participation of all of the volunteers that makes it so special. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Day two begins with crew training for the upcoming mission. They check out the crew positions in the aircraft and if they want to ride in the ball turret they can. Just one of the many unique features that we offer is to be able to experience things that can't be done elsewhere. Once in a lifetime experiences are what we do best, over and over.
We opened up the tail turret for the campers too. Normally the tail is closed off on 909 but we removed the PX gear and made floorboards so you could crawl back to the tail gunner's position. We also freed up the guns so they could be manipulated just like they used to.
Ken checks out the students in the operation of the Sperry ball turret. The idea is to give the student specific training in the ball turret so when they try it out in flight it is familiar to them. Unfortunately the Ball turret in 909 was in need of some serious work so it was not fully operational for the flight. Those that wanted to try it out were able to do so without the turret powered up. Maybe next year the ball turret will be all ready to run.
This shot by Craig reminded me of that wartime Life Magazine spread on the B-17. We need a fuel and oil truck and we can recreate this shot. Next year.
It was purely accidental but the similarities between the two shots are really cool. The Life image was stolen from here: http://jantelagom.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/b-17-08.jpg
The good Norden sight and stabilizer gets installed just before the mission. It lives a comfortable life otherwise. This sight has dropped bombs from a Beech AT-11, B-25J, a B-24J and now a B-17G.
When was the last time an M-5 bomb trailer was backed under a B-17G? This was real cool to see for sure. It fit with a few inches to spare just like it is supposed to.
The Ground Crew loaded 5 250 pound bombs in 21 minutes. Not sure how long it took back in WWII but that seems like a quick turn to me
Mac wanted to help load bombs too. Man is he strong or maybe he was just trying to impress the pinup gals? Hmmm...
Then the guns are set up in their mounts and installed. What was really cool was that the guns were a matching pair from WWII that were manufactured by Frigidair.
They were 302 serial numbers apart. Are machine gun serial numbers different than Skyraider carb serial numbers 'cuz I love serial numbers...
The guns were under the care of Kevin who was amazing to work with. This guy is great and I wish I had more time to listen to his stories and learn from him. Any guy who has a 50 cal ruptured case extractor on his chest is OK in my book. Wow this guy has been there and done that. Any movie with big Hollywood stars and machine guns will have his name in the credits.
This photo does not convey what a fun, crazy SOB he is. Thanks for the fun and all of your help Kevin. Where can we buy your calendars? I want to subscribe!
With all of the guns, bombs and crew all ready; off we go
Here I am doing training with the Norden in the nose. One of the benefits of the B-17 is the roomy nose which allows me to sit on the ammo boxes and let the student sit in the bombardiers position. This way they can look through the sight and actually release the bombs under my supervision. In the B-24 it is so cramped that my fat backside fills up the nose. It is a one person thing with the bombsight in the B-24.
The nose of the B-24 is so small that i was not able to use the X-1 reflex sight on the Norden head because it hits the turret support structure. The Collings B-24J originally was a lend lease aircraft for the British and then the Indian Air Force so it never came with a Norden. It had a Sperry T-1 sight and parts of its mount are still there. The Norden was installed for the restoration but I think it sits too high.
The B-17 is definitely my choice for Bomber Camp as it is perfect for the students to be able to cozy up to the Norden and see what it was like to find a target through the optics. Not easy from 2000 feet let alone 20,000.
The optics of the nose bowl in 909 do not help much as they are wavy and it is real hard to see the target without looking through the flat optical glass for the bombsight.
This is Brink who is wearing his flight suit from the Navy. The last time he wore it was when he was flying P2V Neptunes. He did a great job and dropped his bombs closest to the target
Here is Brinks hit. Just in the middle of the pickup truck is our target. It is a pickle barrel (so maybe it is a wine barrel but we will call it a pickle barrel anyway). I am sure some of you know the story but just in case: In WWII it was said that the Norden Bombsight could hit a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet. The legend goes on to say that at a press conference Carl Norden was asked if his bombsight could actually hit a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet to which Norden replied 'yes, if you tell me which pickle you want me to hit'.
I love this story which is why you will find a pickle barrel in the middle of our target to honor Mr. Norden. The reality is that the pickle barrel is probably the safest spot since that is what we are aiming for!
After working hard to get everyone in and out of the ball turret Ken comes up front to check out the Bombsight while we are returning to base.
Happiness is also a warm Norden with spinning gyros and warm shells on the floor
Another cool serial number thing of sorts is that most of the brass we shot up was dated 1943 and 1944. I'll be right back as I feel the need to go wash my hands.
The crew shot of a happy bunch of campers, class of 44-5
Thanks to Rob Coillings and the Collings Foundation for letting us bring our crazy Bomber Camp idea to reality with the Collings Aircraft.
To all of the volunteers: Thanks for all of your help and support in making Bomber Camp such a special event. You guys and gals make this one heck of an event and there are many campers out there who thank you too.
You all can help too by sending anyone who might want to try Bomber Camp our way. As long as we have people wanting to go we will be able to put it on each year.
The photos on this thread were made possible by: Jim Dunn, Jim Harley, Craig, Scott, Ken and many others. Thank you all for sharing your work with us all.
Here is a youtube video shot by Gene Norman of the last salvo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWVa92Gstg
This is Jerry, a great Beech pilot, who is flying our C-45H as the photo ship.
And a special thanks to the Arizona Ground Crew Living History Unit. The best bunch of guys you could ever imagine who bring history alive. You all really are the heart and soul of Bomber Camp. Well done guys.
You have certainly earned a rest. Sleep well!
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:52 pm
One of these days I will go with you guys!! Looks like a lot of fun.
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:14 pm
Looks awesome Taigh! Someday......!
Jerry
Jerry
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:15 am
"When a better pickle barrel is made, Norden will bomb it!"
Great work and photos! Sure looks like fun,: I'd like to make it out there for camp some time.
PJ
PV-2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"
www.amhf.org
Great work and photos! Sure looks like fun,: I'd like to make it out there for camp some time.
PJ
PV-2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"
www.amhf.org
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:16 am
FAN-tastic report, next best thing to being there,THANKS!!
> ...instead of the B-24 we used the B-17 for the first time. Both aircraft are wonderful to use but each has their pros and cons.
Be interesting to hear what the relative pros and cons are in this context...? I can already see one being space, or lack thereof, around the bomb sight (I still wanna go in the '24, though....).
> ...instead of the B-24 we used the B-17 for the first time. Both aircraft are wonderful to use but each has their pros and cons.
Be interesting to hear what the relative pros and cons are in this context...? I can already see one being space, or lack thereof, around the bomb sight (I still wanna go in the '24, though....).
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:46 am
Pogo wrote:
Be interesting to hear what the relative pros and cons are in this context...? I can already see one being space, or lack thereof, around the bomb sight (I still wanna go in the '24, though....).
The '24 is a lot closer to the ground, so the top bomb rack is about 5 feet easier to get to
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:23 pm
Awesome Taigh - congrats!
Tom P.
Tom P.
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:27 pm
Some observations from the back of the bus guy. I've run the ball turret and assisted the machine gun guy on every mission we have flown. I love both the B-24 & B-17 and have been privileged to do some amazing things in both.
I like the waist of the B-24 better that the B-17. The waist in the B-24 is roomier and has the open waist windows. Once we start firing the guns, people tend to mingle to watch the action. However the guns sound louder in the B-17 than the B-24 even with the closed waist windows?
I like the ball turret in the B-17 better than the B-24, simply because it is easier for me to get people in and out of. I also don't have to lower and raise the ball in the B-17. Once I lower the ball in the B-24 I have to stand in the well that it leaves once she is outside of the airplane. I'm in there almost up to my waist. The turret gunner then has to kind of climb over me to get down in there to get into the ball. All the while I have to support the turret door to keep anyone from putting weight on the door. Then once done have to reverse the process. In the B-17 I just have to crank the guns down and open the door. The B-17 wins due to easy use. However I think the B-24 has a better ball turret.
It's also easier to watch the bombs drop from the B-17 than the B-24 from the back due to the Bomb bay being higher but both offer great views. The B-17 also seems to get off the ground quicker than the B-24.
These are just my observations of working In back and what seems to be the easier of the two for what I have to do.
I like the waist of the B-24 better that the B-17. The waist in the B-24 is roomier and has the open waist windows. Once we start firing the guns, people tend to mingle to watch the action. However the guns sound louder in the B-17 than the B-24 even with the closed waist windows?
I like the ball turret in the B-17 better than the B-24, simply because it is easier for me to get people in and out of. I also don't have to lower and raise the ball in the B-17. Once I lower the ball in the B-24 I have to stand in the well that it leaves once she is outside of the airplane. I'm in there almost up to my waist. The turret gunner then has to kind of climb over me to get down in there to get into the ball. All the while I have to support the turret door to keep anyone from putting weight on the door. Then once done have to reverse the process. In the B-17 I just have to crank the guns down and open the door. The B-17 wins due to easy use. However I think the B-24 has a better ball turret.
It's also easier to watch the bombs drop from the B-17 than the B-24 from the back due to the Bomb bay being higher but both offer great views. The B-17 also seems to get off the ground quicker than the B-24.
These are just my observations of working In back and what seems to be the easier of the two for what I have to do.
Last edited by Redtracer on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:04 pm
Purely from a Bomber Camp perspective since I am certainly not going to try and open the can of works about which design is better:
The B-24 is more fun shooting from the open waist windows
The B-24 is easier to load bombs with the racks lower and spread out in two bomb bays. The B-17 racks are higher up requiring ladders for those of us without the proper hoist set up.
B-17 is easier to access the bomb bay as you don't normally have to stoop under the doors as in the B-24. The M5 bomb trailer rolls nicely under the B-17 but will not under the B-24.
The campers can see the bombs releasing better in the B-17 than the B-24 since we normally use the forward bomb bay in the B-24. You can stand at the forward end of the B-17 bomb bay and at the radio room to get a good view.
B-17 nose is roomier and more friendly to share the bomb sight. You can fit 6 of your close friends in the nose of the B-17. Not so much in the B-24. I am reminded of the Bob Stevens cartoon about this very subject:
B-17 series has infinitely better vision out of the nose (if the optics were better in 909). In the B-24J or other turret nosed Liberators you practically have to lay on your chest to look forward to the horizon because of the nose turret and its supporting structure. You have probably seen many shots inside the B-17 looking out of the nose. Have you seen any of the same view out of the B-24 with a turret in the nose? Too cramped to take a photo and yet the B-17 is quite spacious even with all of the WWII gear installed.
All of the ball turret stuff Ken mentioned. It is a lot simpler to not have to retract the turret. Ken mentioned that the ball turret in the B-24 is better than the one in the B-17. He means the specific turrets in Witchcraft and 909. The basic turrets are identical in each it is just that the one in 909 is real sick electrically and it also has some gear box issues that make us believe that it needs some serious work. Depending on which aircraft we use next year (we hope we can get enough campers to use both aircraft) then we may swap turrets. I think Gary at American Aero is too busy to work on the frivolous non airworthy items during Winter maintenance so we may have to swap turrets. I might bolt our turret up for a flight but we will see.
The gun thing was really surprising to me. In the B-24 you can hear the guns going off back in the airframe and you might feel a little bit of it. In the B-17 it was real loud. From the nose it sounded like the guns were in the top turret to me. Then shortly after you heard the guns you felt them. After the sound then came a wave a few fractions of a second later. The nose would shake and shimmy as would the bomb sight and the chin turret gun barrels. Wow.
We used the same exact recoiling E-11 gun mount and even had a NOS mount in the waist so there shouldn't have been that much difference in the forces transmitted to the airframe. It was really something to feel and it was awesome for all of us.
Mac was also surprised as he had his hands on the throttles and was in the middle of a power change when the guns went off for the first time. You can imagine what it was like to be changing power when it sounded like your engines have a case of detonation the likes of which you have not heard before. It took Mac a half a second to realize what it was and I also went through that same half a second of WTF?!! After that it was all permagrin for sure.
I gotta wonder why the sound was so different from one aircraft to the next. There was quite a speed differential between our runs on the 17 to the 24 so that is my best guess as to why it sounded so different.
Pretty amazing to hear one single 50 going off like that and to think what it was like when they all were going off in defense. We hope to get more live 50's going on future camps so hopefully we will be able to experience multiple guns then.
Good stuff for sure.
The B-24 is more fun shooting from the open waist windows
The B-24 is easier to load bombs with the racks lower and spread out in two bomb bays. The B-17 racks are higher up requiring ladders for those of us without the proper hoist set up.
B-17 is easier to access the bomb bay as you don't normally have to stoop under the doors as in the B-24. The M5 bomb trailer rolls nicely under the B-17 but will not under the B-24.
The campers can see the bombs releasing better in the B-17 than the B-24 since we normally use the forward bomb bay in the B-24. You can stand at the forward end of the B-17 bomb bay and at the radio room to get a good view.
B-17 nose is roomier and more friendly to share the bomb sight. You can fit 6 of your close friends in the nose of the B-17. Not so much in the B-24. I am reminded of the Bob Stevens cartoon about this very subject:
B-17 series has infinitely better vision out of the nose (if the optics were better in 909). In the B-24J or other turret nosed Liberators you practically have to lay on your chest to look forward to the horizon because of the nose turret and its supporting structure. You have probably seen many shots inside the B-17 looking out of the nose. Have you seen any of the same view out of the B-24 with a turret in the nose? Too cramped to take a photo and yet the B-17 is quite spacious even with all of the WWII gear installed.
All of the ball turret stuff Ken mentioned. It is a lot simpler to not have to retract the turret. Ken mentioned that the ball turret in the B-24 is better than the one in the B-17. He means the specific turrets in Witchcraft and 909. The basic turrets are identical in each it is just that the one in 909 is real sick electrically and it also has some gear box issues that make us believe that it needs some serious work. Depending on which aircraft we use next year (we hope we can get enough campers to use both aircraft) then we may swap turrets. I think Gary at American Aero is too busy to work on the frivolous non airworthy items during Winter maintenance so we may have to swap turrets. I might bolt our turret up for a flight but we will see.
The gun thing was really surprising to me. In the B-24 you can hear the guns going off back in the airframe and you might feel a little bit of it. In the B-17 it was real loud. From the nose it sounded like the guns were in the top turret to me. Then shortly after you heard the guns you felt them. After the sound then came a wave a few fractions of a second later. The nose would shake and shimmy as would the bomb sight and the chin turret gun barrels. Wow.
We used the same exact recoiling E-11 gun mount and even had a NOS mount in the waist so there shouldn't have been that much difference in the forces transmitted to the airframe. It was really something to feel and it was awesome for all of us.
Mac was also surprised as he had his hands on the throttles and was in the middle of a power change when the guns went off for the first time. You can imagine what it was like to be changing power when it sounded like your engines have a case of detonation the likes of which you have not heard before. It took Mac a half a second to realize what it was and I also went through that same half a second of WTF?!! After that it was all permagrin for sure.
I gotta wonder why the sound was so different from one aircraft to the next. There was quite a speed differential between our runs on the 17 to the 24 so that is my best guess as to why it sounded so different.
Pretty amazing to hear one single 50 going off like that and to think what it was like when they all were going off in defense. We hope to get more live 50's going on future camps so hopefully we will be able to experience multiple guns then.
Good stuff for sure.
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:28 pm
Amazing story and pictures. What a treat it must be to participate. I'm seriously envious.
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:31 pm
Taigh Ramey wrote:After that it was all permagrin for sure.
I bet, lol!!
I always liked that Bob Stevens cartoon too, but never had the experience to "feel" it. Great comments, notes, and observations all the way around, guys, thanks a million!!
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:02 am
Are machine gun serial numbers different than Skyraider carb serial numbers 'cuz I love serial numbers...
HA!
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:13 am
I was wondering if anyone would get that one.
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:17 am
THIS is the absolute embodiment of LIVING HISTORY. Guys, you are amazing and an inspiration to all of us who strive to bring the stories of the boys back then to the people of today.
And I cannot even begin to tell you how freakin' jealous I am of the lucky few who can afford this experience.
Thanks for the amazing write-up and photos, Taigh! One question, with all that weight shifting around for everyone going forward and aft to experience the bomb drops, sighting, gunnery, etc, how difficult was it to trim out the 17 to compensate for all that movement? I have to assume Mac must've been working the trim like a madman with everyone shuttling back and forth like that.
Thanks again Taigh, and thanks to the Collings guys for having the audacity to do this.
Lynn
And I cannot even begin to tell you how freakin' jealous I am of the lucky few who can afford this experience.
Thanks for the amazing write-up and photos, Taigh! One question, with all that weight shifting around for everyone going forward and aft to experience the bomb drops, sighting, gunnery, etc, how difficult was it to trim out the 17 to compensate for all that movement? I have to assume Mac must've been working the trim like a madman with everyone shuttling back and forth like that.
Thanks again Taigh, and thanks to the Collings guys for having the audacity to do this.
Lynn
Re: Bomber Camp 2013 was a success
Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:26 am
This is why I love living history!!!