Luftwaffe of the FHC and Tillamook air museums

[Randune]

The first pics are from the planes at Paul Allens collection and the Buchon is from Tillamook air museum.
I have a question for anyone who can answer it on the FW190D. In one of the photos the flaps look like they are made of plywood.. were they really?


V1 Rocket








Me163 Komet














Me109 or is it a Bf? I don't know the difference... I wish I would of took more of this one










Storch








FW190
















FW190D












-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tillamook's Ha1112 Buchon-- they said they were starting a restoration on this bird.

[JohnTerrell]

The FHC Fw 190D-13 (WrN 836017) is really a unique aircraft. It wasn't completed and put into action until the very last couple of months of the war in Europe (it being one of only two D-13's that entered service by April 7, 1945). By that time, with the limited resources at hand, wood was being introduced where metal had been used prior. On 836017, it has been restored to as closely match the way it was originally manufactured during WWII as possible, where items like the flaps and some of the access doors/panels were made of very thin aluminum and lined with wood (the wood used in the restoration was actually imported from Germany). Because of the climate of manufacturing during the period of time the aircraft was produced, anything that could be found to be used on the aircraft, was - for instance the original right and left consoles on the inside of the cockpit are from a Ta 152. A section of the instrument panel is also made of wood. The aircraft's restoration was done under the direction of then owner Doug Champlin, with the restoration work being conducted by the very talented folks at GossHawk Unlimited. (On a related note, much of the entire tail section of the NASM's preserved Ta 152H-0 was manufactured of wood rather than metal.)

Thank you for posting the photos, I never get tired of seeing these aircraft! Also it is nice to hear that the Tillamook Buchon might be receiving greater attention soon!

[gregv]

Me109 or is it a Bf? I don't know the difference... I wish I would of took more of this one

Great pics, thanks for sharing!

Long story short, there seems to be definitive proof that both Bf and Me are correct and were both used by the manufacturer and the Luftwaffe (in technical documents, manuals, group equipment allotments etc.) until the end of the war. I'm not an expert though, this is from what I've read in more than one seemingly well-researched and respected reference book.

cheers

greg v.

[The Inspector]

The KOMETS wings are also wood and off the airframe laying on the hanger floor they cover a huge amount of real estate, I saw the KOMET when it was apart for repairs and paint before the FHC opened.

Denial of strategic materials was but one reason (along with cheaper, easier to make, etc.) for papier mache drop tanks used in Europe., which sounds weird when at times it rained B-17's and B-24's and LANCASTERS 'GOT ENOUGH ALUMINUM YET?':?

It took a meeting between NASM and FHC to straighten out that each group had the wings for the others airframe which is why neither could hook up the aileron systems, so a wing swap was arranged, they got mixed up either in Germany or @ Wright Field.

[C VEICH]

Great news about the Tillamook Buchon, hope the work is completed. I was priviledged to grow up not too far from Falcon Field, home of Champlin and Gosshawk for many years. Unfortunately I did not get to see much of the D13 after its final re-restoration but I did manage a rather cluttered picture of it as the Gosshawk guys dismantled it for shipping. I've included a couple of shots of some other 190's that I've come across at Gosshawk over the years. Anybody know the current status of "White 1" by the way?

[bombadier29]

It took a meeting between NASM and FHC to straighten out that each group had the wings for the others airframe which is why neither could hook up the aileron systems, so a wing swap was arranged, they got mixed up either in Germany or @ Wright Field.

I seem to remember that this was actually a swap involving the US Air Force Museum and Champlin (at the time) rather than the NASM.

Anybody know the current status of "White 1" by the way?

White 1 is now owned by the Collings Foundation and is at American Aero for completion.

The Hispano at Tillamook is in the exact same condition it was in about 10 years ago. Its been moved a few feet but, externally at least, not much has been done to it. The wing fairings are not even all the way on and never have been as far as I can tell. I recently saw pictures of the plane that were taken about ten or twelve years between them and it looked basically the same. Its a pretty nice plane and I really don't know what could be done to really restore it further, unless they make it airworthy and take the dent out of the spinner!

[DaveM2]

White 1 has gone to the Collings Foundation and work will continue at American Aero Services.

Oops beaten to the punch. I used to be able to delete posts if I had no one post after me-can't find that option any more?

Dave

[JohnTerrell]

Although not important, for clarification, the Fw 190D-9 (Werk No. 601088) that was part of the wing swap is owned by the NASM, but has been on loan to the USAF Museum since the 70's. If you see the aircraft today at the USAF Museum, you can see that the paint finishes are different between the fuselage and wings as a result of the swap/correction.

The original mix-up took place when the USAAF sent the D-13 to an Atlanta-based technical school following the end of its use. The D-9 wings ended up being sent with it, while the D-13 wings were mistakingly sent with the D-9 fuselage to the NASM.

Last edited by JohnTerrell on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JDK]

Great pics, thanks for sharing!

Seconded!

Me109 or is it a Bf? I don't know the difference... I wish I would of took more of this one.

Long story short, there seems to be definitive proof that both Bf and Me are correct and were both used by the manufacturer and the Luftwaffe (in technical documents, manuals, group equipment allotments etc.) until the end of the war. I'm not an expert though, this is from what I've read in more than one seemingly well-researched and respected reference book.

Agreed. Don't get too involved, though, or the hardcore Luftwaffe enthusiasts will find you and bore you to death.

Pragmatically, up to the Bf 109E you should stick with 'Bf', afterwards you can use 'Bf' or 'Me' legitimately; but using 'Me' for the Me 109G onwards generally Me matches the RLM's recognition of Dear Willy's role. 'Me' for subsequent types to the 109 - so Bf 108, Me 262, no such thing, I understand as a Bf 262.

And as we are discussing it, strictly it should be upper case, lower case, space, number - Bf 108, Fw 190. Not BF108. (Don't mention the capitalisation of MiG.)

The Tillamook Buchon is neat in that it still has the original four blade prop, although it is an ex-Battle of Britain adopted airframe with a mix of the changes and items from the film now missing. (Semi-clipped wingstips, spinner 'hole', but no tail struts and no nose guns.)

Regards,

[JohnB]

Don't get too involved, though, or the hardcore Luftwaffe enthusiasts will find you and bore you to death.

Pragmatically, up to the Bf 109E you should stick with 'Bf', afterwards you can use 'Bf' or 'Me' legitimately; but using 'Me' for the Me 109G onwards generally Me matches the RLM's recognition of Dear Willy's role.
Regards,

James...

I don't wish to disagree with you... (because anyone who does so usually at their peril... )
BUT
Both William Greem in his epic Warplanes of the Third Reich and
Smith and Key in German Aircarft of the Second Word War published by Putnam, use the Bf designation throughout their extensive histories of the 109.
I use Bf for the 109 (and 110 since it was a production contemporary of the 109) and Me for subsequent aircraft.

[The Inspector]

Don't get too involved, though, or the hardcore Luftwaffe enthusiasts will find you and bore you to death.

Pragmatically, up to the Bf 109E you should stick with 'Bf', afterwards you can use 'Bf' or 'Me' legitimately; but using 'Me' for the Me 109G onwards generally Me matches the RLM's recognition of Dear Willy's role.
Regards,

James...

I don't wish to disagree with you... (because anyone who does so usually at their peril... )
BUT
Both William Greem in his epic Warplanes of the Third Reich and
Smith and Key in German Aircarft of the Second Word War published by Putnam, use the Bf designation throughout their extensive histories of the 109.
I use Bf for the 109 (and 110 since it was a production contemporary of the 109) and Me for subsequent aircraft.

OK buddy! you asked for it! We want to see 1500 words on the differences between RLM 65 and RLM 76

[Steve Nelson]

..and don't forget RLM 84!

Here's a snapshot I took last weekend of the NASM/NMUSAF Fw-190D-9, showing the rematched wings. It looks like the museum has now repainted them to match the fuselage..when first attached I recall they were green camo. Incidentally, some years ago I was able to get up close to the aircraft when it was parked over at the Annex for some reason, and was surprised to find that a number of the hatches and inspection panels on the fuselage were indeed made of wood (visible through worn paint..I didn't go banging on the aircraft like the Neanderthals I saw beating up Flak Bait at the NASM.)

SN

[JDK]

I don't wish to disagree with you... (because anyone who does so usually at their peril... )

Well, maybe - just bring your evidence, that's all!

BUT
Both William Greem in his epic Warplanes of the Third Reich and
Smith and Key in German Aircarft of the Second Word War published by Putnam, use the Bf designation throughout their extensive histories of the 109.
I use Bf for the 109 (and 110 since it was a production contemporary of the 109) and Me for subsequent aircraft.

I wouldn't disagree; and you're right to say that certainly early 110s should have the Bf prefix, which I overlooked. However it is not wrong to use 'Me' for post 109G models, and late 110s. Whether you wish to switch RLM designation halfway through or stick to the original for consistency can also simply be a publication editorial decision. There's primary evidence to show both Bf and Me for the later 109s and 110s, and very late 109K etc, IIRC, it's more usual to find Me, and Bf has become rare - the exception. The Luftwaffe and manufacturers used both.

The irony above all this is that for a nation focused on 'good organisation' - 'Ordnung' - the designation system all rather went to pot, thanks to ego, bribes, paperwork confusion, dream-'planes etc.

(By the way, though Green's Luftwaffe works are quite rightly highly regarded, subsequent research has demonstrated a number of myths and errors; as happens to us all! A good check is if the myth of the 'overlooked' Do 17 mailplane found in a hangar and reselected as a Luftwaffe aircraft is mentioned. Complete propaganda, but repeated widely.)

Regards,