P-51 Anti-glare panels...

[Laggin' Dragon]

Does anyone know when the official change over from OD to black on the P-51's anti-glare panel took place? or is it just one a few subtle changes made during the war in their manufacturing finalization process? If so the later, when was the change implemented?

I have several photos of U.S. 4th FG P-51's with black anti-glare panels during the war, and the prop is that of the later style, not the traditional style prop we all know to be on the P-51's during wartime. I know these photos to be wartime, because a couple of the pilots viewed were killed during the war in the later summer - early fall of 1944.

Any information will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Laggin' Dragon

[JohnTerrell]

As far as I know, all P-51D/K's were manufactured with Olive Drab being used for the anti-glare panels, and nothing else (this can be seen in clear color photos of the earliest variants (P-51D-5-NA's) all the way to the last (P-51K-15-NT's, P-51D-30-NA's, and P-51D-30-NT's)). Unfortunately many photos of the period make the OD paint out to be darker than it really was, leaving some to interpret it to be black in some cases. If there were any P-51D's with black anti-glare panels in WWII, it would have had to have likely been an in-field paint application.

Regarding the propeller, there were the cuffed Hamilton Standard prop blades, which were fitted to the vast majority of the Merlin-engined P-51's during WWII (the prop type that you refer to as the traditional style), and there were also the Aeroproducts prop blades, which were used as the Hamilton Standards couldn't be supplied as fast as Mustangs could be produced. Although identical to the P-51D, those fitted from the factory with the Aeroproducts prop blades were of course designated P-51K's (and had a different nose cone, just for the Aeroproducts blades). There were a number of P-51K's in the 4th FG in WWII, and that is what, without seeing the photos, I would expect them to be. (There was yet another prop type - the cuffless "square tip" Hamilton Standard props - that were introduced very, very late in P-51D production, on P-51D-30-NA's and D-30-NT's. These didn't make it to Europe, though there is at least a small set of photos showing one of these examples in the Pacific, just immediately post VJ-Day).

Would love to see the photos!

Last edited by JohnTerrell on Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

[The Inspector]

I'd almost bet that some of the black anti glare repaints were part of a groups 'Dig this' individualzation so they stood out to each other (and from fellow, competing groups in a 'thumb our noses at you') which would have lead to 'hey! if those guys can do that, so can we' aping by others.

[51fixer]

As far as I know, all P-51D/K's were manufactured with Olive Drab being used for the anti-glare panels, and nothing else (this can be seen in clear color photos of the earliest variants (P-51D-5-NA's) all the way to the last (P-51K-15-NT's, P-51D-30-NA's, and P-51D-30-NT's)). Unfortunately many photos of the period make the OD paint out to be darker than it really was, leaving some to interpret it to be black in some cases. If there were any P-51D's with black anti-glare panels in WWII, it would have had to have likely been an in-field paint application.

Regarding the propeller, there were the cuffed Hamilton Standard prop blades, which were fitted to the vast majority of the Merlin-engined P-51's during WWII (the prop type that you refer to as the traditional style), and there were also the Aeroproducts prop blades, which were used as the Hamilton Standards couldn't be supplied as fast as Mustangs could be produced. Although identical to the P-51D, those fitted from the factory with the Aeroproducts prop blades were of course designated P-51K's (and had a different nose cone, just for the Aeroproducts blades). There were a number of P-51K's in the 4th FG in WWII, and that is what, without seeing the photos, I would expect them to be. (There was yet another prop type - the cuffless "square tip" Hamilton Standard props - that were introduced very, very late in P-51D production, on P-51D-30-NA's and D-30-NT's. These didn't make it to Europe, though there is at least a small set of photos showing one of these examples in the Pacific, just immediately post VJ-Day).

Would love to see the photos!

NAA blue print for A/C markings for the P-51 show OD for the Anti Glare areas. I glanced through the NAA Weekly Service News that I have that pertain to changes in the P-51D and nothing was noted for a change to Black. Unless there was an company wide directive for all AAC A/C being delivered with black replacing OD but my Weekly Service News are not a complete set.

[Dan Johnson II]

The 4th birds were done in theater and were just a few, basically at a pilot's request. A bit like the blue ones on Stewarts and Glover's 51s.

I think the ANG did black during overhaul and repaints in the 50s.

[Laggin' Dragon]

Here ya go guys!











I LOVE the 4th FG... lol

Regards,
Laggin' Dragon

[51fixer]

Here ya go guys!











I LOVE the 4th FG... lol

Regards,
Laggin' Dragon

With the quality of the photos most are hard to say.

Can't really tell on my screen. Compare back of blade to glare panel as the blades are black.

There looks to be a difference between the cover over the instrument panel and the gunsight, (both known to be black) inside the windshield and the antiglare panel.

I'd guess OD on my monitor.

The red on the nose looks dark and off color so it would be hard to guess what any of the colors are in this photo.

Looks OD to me. The QP and D look to be darker and more black than the anti glare.
OD could be pretty dark against the brightness of the alum skin. Dunno how well films of the era would deal with the contrast and color representation.
Need some special software and a known reference on each photo to get into the id of colors. I'm trying to figure some of this out to look at shades on B&W photos in the SNJ-3 book to figure out cockpit colors.

[The Inspector]

Here ya go guys!











I LOVE the 4th FG... lol

Regards,
Laggin' Dragon

With the quality of the photos most are hard to say.

Can't really tell on my screen. Compare back of blade to glare panel as the blades are black.

There looks to be a difference between the cover over the instrument panel and the gunsight, (both known to be black) inside the windshield and the antiglare panel.

I'd guess OD on my monitor.

The red on the nose looks dark and off color so it would be hard to guess what any of the colors are in this photo.

Looks OD to me. The QP and D look to be darker and more black than the anti glare.
OD could be pretty dark against the brightness of the alum skin. Dunno how well films of the era would deal with the contrast and color representation.
Need some special software and a known reference on each photo to get into the id of colors. I'm trying to figure some of this out to look at shades on B&W photos in the SNJ-3 book to figure out cockpit colors.

Open the hood on any car and see how many shades of flat black you see (and Mike Joy and Steve Magnanti are great at pointing this out @ B-J auctions...) the DIFFERENT, correct shades of FLAT black on the inner fenders, the firewall, the radiator brace........

[Saville]

Was there a purpose to the anti-glare paint narrowing as you go forward from the cockpit? Or was that a matter of aesthetics?


I would think that some of the bare metal towards the nose would reflect unwanted light. But I don't know from personal observation.

[JimH]

[51fixer]

Was there a purpose to the anti-glare paint narrowing as you go forward from the cockpit? Or was that a matter of aesthetics?


I would think that some of the bare metal towards the nose would reflect unwanted light. But I don't know from personal observation.

It is line of sight. When you sit in it you can't see any of the bare metal areas.
The blueprint and manuals give the guidance for the markings.
On Bald Eagle the paint is glossy. When I taxi late in the day west toward the sun I don't notice any issues from reflected sunlight. The biggest issue I have is the prop cutting the sunlight that is in your eyes directly. The strobe effect is most noticeable.
Of course this is on the ground for maint runs, not flying.