Air Force Museum B-25B?

[John Dupre]

I know that the Air Force Museum's B-25B was rebuilt from a later model in order to replicate the type used by Doolittle on his famous raid. Just how authentic is it? Is it merely cosmetic or was real effort made to install B model equipment and systems? How would its configuration stand up to a modern effort to accomplish the same thing?

[Clifford Bossie]

I know that the Air Force Museum's B-25B was rebuilt from a later model in order to replicate the type used by Doolittle on his famous raid. Just how authentic is it? Is it merely cosmetic or was real effort made to install B model equipment and systems? How would its configuration stand up to a modern effort to accomplish the same thing?

It is a B-25D, 43-3374. It looks pretty convincing, but I am sure an afficiando could pick all that is wrong.

[51fixer]

IIRC it was done by North American Aviation.

[JohnB]

IIRC it was done by North American Aviation.

In 1958...probably one of the first aircraft restored for the USAFM, and certainly early in the warbird preservation movement.
Today it's set in a caerrier setting with covers over the engines, similar to what was used on the Hornet.
I'm told they hide some of the changes not made by NAA. There is a differnce between the cowls of B and D models.

The plane was flown to Dayton so they didn't want to do anything that might effect the performance of the aircraft, or perhaps they just couldn't find the early cowls.

I think Doolittle himself may have flown it...part way.

[mustangdriver]

I always loved this plane and display. She started life as a B-25D. Then became a weather plane. Then the plane was given to North American who restored it back to Doolittle's B model. The plane was flown by crew #1 for some PR flights and the flown to the museum by Doolittle and Cole. It has broomsticks for tail guns and the 10 cent Bomb sight. I think there are few small things but it's a great display.

[JohnB]

I always loved this plane and display. She started life as a B-25D. Then became a weather plane. Then the plane was given to North American who restored it back to Doolittle's B model. The plane was flown by crew #1 for some PR flights and the flown to the museum by Doolittle and Cole. It has broomsticks for tail guns and the 10 cent Bomb sight. I think there are few small things but it's a great display.

Amen!

Thanks for confirming that Doolittle has flown it.
I've spent hours looking at it....

BTW: Try to find the old article Ed Mack Miller wrote for Air Force Magazine about Ross Greenling (AC for crew 11), designer of the 10 cent bombsite.
It's in Millers' collection of articles...Men of the Contrail Country from 1964.
If you're interested in the raid...I can't recommend it highly enough. There are lots of great stories in the book about the USAF in the 40s-50s.
You can buy a used copy for a few dollars on Alibris and other sites.

[Pathfinder]

Every 10 year old kid who ever built a Revell 72 scale Doolittle B-25 questioned the nearest docent about the cowling blisters on the displayed Mitchell...so after 40+ years of questions they tarped the cowlings.

[Steve Nelson]

Double post...see below

SN

Last edited by Steve Nelson on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Steve Nelson]

When initially acquired for the museum it had been converted to a photo plane, with big camera bulges on the sides of the nose. It also had the retrofitted tail gunner's station with a single .50 used on the B-25G. A stock nose was installed, and from what I can see the only other changes are the removal of the "bay" waist windows and tail gunner's station, as well as the astrodome behind the cockpit. Some extra scanning windows were added to the fuselage, and the tail "bumper" was replaced with the earlier (retractable?) tail skid. A dorsal turret was also added. The later individual exhaust stacks were left in place, so it doesn't have the smooth cowls and collector ring of the "B."

Here are some of detail shots of the NMUSAF B-25. First is the tailskid.



Here's the cockpit. Maybe one of our resident Mitchell drivers can tell if there's been any work to "backdate" it from D to B configuration. I got this shot by putting the camera on the end of an extended monopod and using the remote timer. I've got a camera with a better wide-angle lens now, and hope to get a better shot on my next visit.



Here's a shot into the waist compartment. I took this on a visit years ago, when I noticed the plexi had been removed from one of the fuselage scanning windows. This was back when I was shooting "film" (ask your parents, kids) so I had to guess at exposure and focus, and wait until I got it processed to tell if I'd gotten anything.



I found these pics of the aircraft in its former life by doing a Google image search of her actual serial number. There's an old thread on WIX that had a bunch of pics and details of the conversion, but all the photo links are now dead.







Cheers!

Steve

[RyanShort1]

I can't think of my source for this off of the top of my head right now, but I believe that I either was told, or read somewhere that North American Aviation did supply a proper cowling and exhaust stack setup to go with the aircraft on display, but that something happened to it and it never made it onto the display.

Ryan

[Steve Nelson]

I like the current display, but it would be nice if they could remove the tarps someday. Sometime back in the 90s a brand-new crystal-clear upper turret dome was added to the aircraft, only to be covered up a couple of years later by the tarp.

SN

[gary1954]

I can't think of my source for this off of the top of my head right now, but I believe that I either was told, or read somewhere that North American Aviation did supply a proper cowling and exhaust stack setup to go with the aircraft on display, but that something happened to it and it never made it onto the display.

Ryan

It was originally posted on Aerovintage, I wrote it


RB-25D 43-3374 a.k.a. 40-2344
Thought I'd share this little write up of mine with those that don't venture out much.

7 November 1957, Colonel Jack A. Simms, USAF of the Office of Legislative Liaison, was in charge of the annual reunion of the Doolittle Raiders that was being held in 1958 in Las Vegas, Nevada on 18 April 1958.
He came up with the idea of acquiring one of the many B-25s that were being phased out of the Air Force, and having North American “modify it” to represent the lead aircraft flown by General Doolittle on the Tokyo Raid, and present the aircraft to the Air Force Museum.
He ran the idea by General Doolittle and Doolittle agreed with Colonel Simms on the project, Simms had already talked to the people at North American, and knew he could get a B-25 for the project.

So, Simms sent a letter to Colonel John F. Wadman, the Director of the Air Force Museum at Wright – Patterson and invited him to join him (Simms), Doolittle, and the Tokyo Raiders in Vegas, where he and General Doolittle would present the Mitchell to the Air Force Museum.
Doolittle said that he would fly the B-25 to Los Vegas, and Simms suggested that maybe he and Wadman could fly in onboard the B-25 as well. Simms was also concerned that North American might have some difficulty in locating a top turret, and inquired if the Museum had one.

30 December 1957, Colonel George R. Bickell, USAF, Chief of Operations Programs Division, Director of Operations fired off a Memorandum to the Chief, Aircraft Division, Directorate of Maintenance Engineering. The subject: Request for RB-25D for Air Museum.

Colonel Bickell said that a requirement existed for a B-25 to be placed in the Air Force Museum, and must, as closely as possible, depict one of the B-25s used on the Tokyo Raid.
He specified that RB-25D 43-3374 then in storage at Davis Monthan “most closely fills this requirement”.


Photos via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection

Bickell requested that the subject B-25 be prepared for a one time flight to for the transfer to the Air Force Museum, and that Air Force Museum funds would be applied toward the cost of the removal from storage and preparation for the one time flight to the North American Aircraft Corporation, and that the modification would be at no expense to the government.
He also mentioned in his Memorandum, that the formal presentation of the B-25 to the Museum would be made by General Doolittle on 18 April 1958 in Los Vegas.

Things happen quickly when there are a couple of Colonels and a General involved, as on 31 December 1957, Lieutenant Colonel S.W. Stewart, whom I believe was assigned to Headquarters, USAF, sent a movement order through Colonel R. R. Barden, USAF, who was then the Acting Director, Maintenance-Engineering, Deputy Chief of Staff, Materials, advising him that the decision had been made to place a B-25 in the Museum at Wright-Patterson, and that RB-25D 43-3374 was to be prepared for a one time flight for delivery to the North American Inglewood Facility as soon as possible, but not later than 1 February 1958.
He also specified that “Every effort will be made to insure above delivery date is met”.


Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection

RB-25D (F-10) 43-3374 at North American Aviation, Inglewood, CA in 1958

Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection

Here is a list of stuff that was to go on the RB-25D to make it look like a B Model,



- Lewis Collection


Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection

Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection

Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection

Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection


I wonder where all the extra parts went.


Photo via Earl Blount North American Rockwell - Lewis Collection
Flight to the Tokyo Raiders Reunion in Los Vegas

Information via Mr. Earl Blount of North American Rockwell, One of the documents pertaining to 43-3374, indicated that it cost the USAF Museum 96,024.oo Dollars to “modify” 3374 to resemble 40-2344.

[Steve Nelson]

Great stuff as always Gary..thanks!

That was the thread I was referring to, but all the old Photobucket links are broken. Thanks for reposting it!

SN

[lmritger]

What a spectacular writeup, Gary... thank you so much for finding and posting all that info!

Lynn

[gary1954]

Thanks guys, I sat on this stuff since mid 1980, then one day I read that there was never an RB designation for the B-25 and I thought...oh, but wait.. ..yes there was.

After living like a gypsy (not there is anything wrong with interesting culture of Gypsies..) for 20 years and a divorce , I was fortunate to have been able to find the documents .
The photos were not a problem as I had them in a binder , but the folders were a challenge to find.. ..knew I had them....but where TF were they.. ..presto