Military closing all flying clubs?

[Enemy Ace]

Is the military closing all the base flying clubs? Several clubs I know of have closed. Just saw the news today that the oldest club in the system has been kicked off base at Wright-Patterson.
As far as being Warbird- relevant, I know many people whose first exposure to a warbird was a ride or checkout in a base flying club T-34. Many of those people later ended up owning T-34's or Nanchang CJ-6's or stearmans or...
Can any of our current military members shed some light on this? I find it especially interesting that most bases have a Embry-Riddle university branch on base offering professional aeronautics degrees but now where are the Enlisted troops supposed to go fly?
IMHO the base flying clubs were a great perk and made money for MWR. Just don't understand this...
See Below for more:

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2 ... c_sect=gan

[JohnB]

I belonged to the Wright-Pat club years ago. Never did much flying...it was so busy it was hard to schedule a plane (Warrior) and instructor.
The only surplus ship they had was a nice T-42 (Baron).
As a kid on the 60s, I know bases had lots of T-34s.

Also when I was active duty I was assigned to a base and the Support Group Commander (base commander) had just closed the aero club because he was afraid a crash might make him look bad. I don't know how true that was but it sure sounded plausable.

[p51]

Also when I was active duty I was assigned to a base and the Support Group Commander (base commander) had just closed the aero club because he was afraid a crash might make him look bad.

I know that's the reason at two USAF bases I know of for sure. Time was, if someone drilled themselves into the woods with the club cessna (heck, if he drilled himself into the base flightline), the investigation was focused on what the FAA would wanna know and if the flying club was aware of any issues. If not, they packed up their files and left and that was that. Now, the military is all about being responsible for people you barely know on a personnel roster and what they did not only off base, but maybe in a totally different state. It ain't your Daddy's military where if Joe did something stupid, he paid the price alone. In the Army, I got reamed more than once by the Battalion CO about someone in my company doing something off the post and after I walked out, had to grab a roster from the S-1 section just to see who they were talking about...
You also don't see auto hobby shop spaces any more on bases for the kids to work on their cars (every military base in America had one until recently, always with someone tinkering on their car), and many posts/bases don't have O clubs anymore. And God forbid you meet for beers at the end of the duty day. It's all the same thing.

[APG85]

Times are tight guys and the money just isn't there anymore to support these things. If a MWR facility isn't making money, it's subject to being closed. Base libraries, clubs, bowling alleys, auto-hobby shops and golf courses are all taking hits...and disappearing. It's the sad, new reality...

[Randy Haskin]

I agree that the reason is twofold: money and risk.

[jmkendall]

I'm a career NCO with the Army. I enlisted in 1980 and will retire in 2020.

When I came in we had "1,2,3"; "4,5,6";"7,8.9", and "O" clubs. The 1-9 being your enlisted rank.

Now we have 2 clubs. Enlisted and Officer. So now the older mature soldiers who just want a quiet night playing pool and relaxing with their friends have to socialize with the younger immature soldiers that just want to get drunk and fight. Why are we really there? To babysit. Pure and simple.

A lot of the bigger Army basis still have bowling alleys, theaters, and Auto hobby shops.

One thing I have noticed and agree with some of my fellow posters is that individual responsibility is gone. I have been punished for things that some of my soldiers have done WHILE I WAS ON LEAVE. Just because someone had to take the hit, and it darn sure wasn't going to be on some officers OER.

As for MWR...do any of you have any idea of how much money is generated by sales of Gasoline? You do understand that the pump price on base is set to the Civilian Pump price. And the Civilians have to pay taxes. All of that profit is supposed to go to the mwr system. Remember when it was cheaper to buy in the PX or Comissary?

[Randy Haskin]

Now we have 2 clubs. Enlisted and Officer.

At least you still have that. The vogue thing to do in the AF is a 'consolidated club'....which absolutely nobody goes to anymore, resulting in endless high-pressure tactics from leadership to force people to become members.

[jmkendall]

Really? In the AF you have Officers and Enlisted in the same club? Wow, that does suck. And from all ways of looking at it.

When you want to relax how do you accomplish that if you are with your subordinates? And if you are a younger SM; well...shouldn't you be allowed to cut loose every once in awhile without having your NCOs and Officers looking over your shoulder? Doesn't that cause more soldiers to have off base parties? Potentially increasing the number of DUI incidents? As well as increased problems with the local civilian population!

When I first Crewed a Huey, my PIC was Major Campos. BOB and I got along fine. We even BBQ'd on occasion. But, generally when it was time to relax he went his way and I went mine. And we both liked it like that!!!!!!

[Fearless Tower]

Now we have 2 clubs. Enlisted and Officer.

At least you still have that. The vogue thing to do in the AF is a 'consolidated club'....which absolutely nobody goes to anymore, resulting in endless high-pressure tactics from leadership to force people to become members.

Not just AF....Navy is going the same way.

As far as the flying clubs, as others have said, it is a sad reality and due to both risk and cost. I don't know if there are any Navy clubs left. They kicked the North Island club out of NASNI around 5 years ago and it soon dissolved.

[Randy Haskin]

Really? In the AF you have Officers and Enlisted in the same club? Wow, that does suck. And from all ways of looking at it.

When you want to relax how do you accomplish that if you are with your subordinates? And if you are a younger SM; well...shouldn't you be allowed to cut loose every once in awhile without having your NCOs and Officers looking over your shoulder? Doesn't that cause more soldiers to have off base parties? Potentially increasing the number of DUI incidents? As well as increased problems with the local civilian population!

Yep...everything you mention is problematic with the plan. Even worse, AF leadership makes it a risky environment to party at. I know of AF police who hang out around the club and cite airmen stumbling back to their dorm rooms with public intox, and people receiving all manner of punishments for the shenanigans inside the club, including Art 15s for some pretty tame stuff.

It all has to do with this concept in the AF right now of demonizing alcohol use. Over the last 6-9 years, the AF has systematically indoctrinated troops into thinking that drinking in any way is evil, along with spiking the thought process through a little social engineering (like taking all the 'fun' away from the clubs, banning bars or alcohol use in the individual units, etc.).

[Randy Haskin]

it is a sad reality and due to both risk and cost.

The problem is that it's not actual risk -- it's leaders who fear any risk whatsoever. It's really an asinine way to lead.

[jmkendall]

In the Army we have to perform a composite risk management (crm) assessment for everything from giving a classroom lecture to convoy operations. Low risk assessments have to be signed off by the Unit Commander ( or his delegated authority). Medium risk assessments are signed off by the first field grade officer in the Chain; and High are signed off on by the first O6 in the chain.

Having said that; it is all a sham. If you do your risk assessment and try to use your controls, and those controls are contrary to the command intent then guess who wins? Unless someone gets hurt. THEN, you better be able to show your signed off CRM. And have witnesses that saw you attempt to institute your control; as well as the over riding command that caused the accident to occur.

If you can not show any of the above you, the NCO are liable; and will probably receive an Art. 15; or worse. If you can show all the above then the OIC will get his/her hand slapped and a new command policy will come out.

Example: We had a scheduled family day event. One of my SMs family lived three (3) hours away. Due to time mismanagement we had mandatory briefings ( you know, the stuff you get twice a year that don't mean anything) that went waaaaaay over the days schedule. When I pointed out that CRM requires eight hours of sleep before a long drive and that the SM had a six hour drive there and back; I was over ruled when I requested that the SM be cut loose early. The SM fell asleep at the wheel and was hospitalized for three weeks.

When I reported to the Battalion Commander, who had already drawn up my Art. 15 papers; and showed him all my paperwork and sworn statements ( including the order in writing from my Commander disallowing my request to send the SM home ) he tore up my paperwork and started to give me the Art. 15; until I told him those were only copies and that I had sent other copies to the IG. At which point I was dismissed. The IG complaint evaporated. The Commander was promoted to Major and I was left alone. And the poor SM? They were given a medical discharge.

[stearmann4]

That hits close to home. I got my warbird start in the North Island Navy Flying Club T-34s in the late 90s. $64/hour wet! If you wanted to fly nice equipment, you drove up the road and rented the March Aero Club's T-34s for $75/hour wet.

If it weren't for those T-34's I would've never went on to fly T-6,s T-28s, my Stearman and the list goes on. I'm guessing military flying clubs pretty much just reflect the dismal state of general aviation and don't make a profit. The military doesn't have any passion for hobby or morale flying.

I'm going on my 23rd year of active duty...just waiting for 30. As a previous poster said, it's not the same military I grew up in.

Mike-

[jmkendall]

I do want to say something on a personal level. I re-read my post and it might come off that I don't respect officers. That's not true. My Father, Grandfather, Great Grandfather, ect were all officers. I know many very competent and professional officers.

My experience though is that more and more we are getting career ticket punchers who are so afraid of getting a bad OER that nothing is allowed to stain their record. The officers that are willing to make a decision and who care for their SMs, while not few and far between, do seem to get passed over more often than those that refuse to do anything out of bounds.

In my early days it was all about performance. Now it is all about perception.

[DC3R4DC47]

i belonged to the March AFB (Decathalon),North Island NAS (C152), El Toro (Piper Arrow), and Quantico(C152,Piper Archer) flying clubs during my active duty tenure as a Marine infantryman. Those clubs offered affordable (cheap !!!),flying and were my means to building my time for my commercial ticket. I hope they reverse this action,those clubs will be missed !!!