4/21 1918 the Red Baron is sent west...

[muddyboots]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen

[oscardeuce]

His is a great story. One of the greatest aviation minds ever. They still teach what he helped to perfect.

As a physician his story is even more interesting with the head injury he suffered and the change in attitude that the injury may have caused. He should have been grounded, yet he went on to lead his men. Not able to make good decisions lead to him being shot down.

He always seemed to care more for his men than himself. Really the perfect leader. In the many books I have read, he seemed to have the knack for showing up at the right time to help out one of his men. Even in the chaos of combat, he seemed to be able to see the whole fight and where he was needed the most.

[snj5]

Oscard is spot on. He naturally picked up the torch after the great Boelcke's death and made many tactical precepts that are still true to this day. Speaking as a flight surgeon, he made some excellent observations and policy on pilot performance and fatigue, and how to optimize pilot performance that we still could all learn from.

"Everything depends on whether we have for opponents those French tricksters or those daring rascals, the English. I prefer the English. Frequently their daring can only be described as stupidity. In their eyes it may be pluck and daring."
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... SHUbBlD.99

[oscardeuce]

Oscard is spot on. He naturally picked up the torch after the great Boelcke's death and made many tactical precepts that are still true to this day. Speaking as a flight surgeon, he made some excellent observations and policy on pilot performance and fatigue, and how to optimize pilot performance that we still could all learn from.

"Everything depends on whether we have for opponents those French tricksters or those daring rascals, the English. I prefer the English. Frequently their daring can only be described as stupidity. In their eyes it may be pluck and daring."
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... SHUbBlD.99

Yup, he broke his own rules, got in a situation where everyone was slinging lead at him and was killed. If only he applied his rules to himself.

Then again had he survived, what would have happened if Manfred von Richtofen lead the Luftwaffe instead of Goering?

[snj5]

Interesting thought. I think, being an educated aristocrat, he would have never had fit in the party, and would have been shuffled aside. Goering's self promotion would not have given vR any quarter, anyway.
What is interesting to me is what would have happened if Boelcke survived, but then, the odds were against any of them surviving.

Still my favorite two aces are Guynemer and Immelmann.

[JohnB]

Interesting thought. I think, being an educated aristocrat, he would have never had fit in the party....

I was thinking the same thing..."What if he survived to the 30s?" You're right about his background, I'd guess he might have been like Udet, a marginal party member who went along out of patriotism and a desire to rebuild a German air force.

But if his head injury was so severe, in his later years he may not have been in any position to make a meaningful contribution to the Luftwaffe.

[oscardeuce]

The head injury is key. In my opinion it changed him so drastically it lead to his death. Then again Hitler's medical file is even thicker.
The politics would have been interesting. MVr was very loyal to the Kaiser, but would he follow Hitler? Most like Udet I would guess, like was mentioned. Would those 2 aces have been enough to overthrow the power of Goering? Imagine a half sane Hitler with the likes of MvR and Rommel in their primes at his side. Might be a different world today.

[Enemy Ace]

"what would have happened if Manfred von Richtofen lead the Luftwaffe instead of Goering?"

The Battle of Britain may have turned out very differently. Manfred Von Richtofen and Wolfram Von Richtofen working together would have been very formidable.
With MvR leading the Luftwaffe the terror bombing of the cities and relieving the pressure on RAF Airfields would probably not have happened. This would have finished the RAF. It was a very close run thing in reality. Had the German fighter force been allowed to hunt freely the same way the allies did at the end of the war the results could have been catastrophic for Britain.

Playing "What if?" with history sure can be fun.

[snj5]

Fun discussion.
The terror bombing of London was destined to happen, as it was a political emotional decision by the Fuehrer, not a sound military strategic one (although marketed as such). The Fuehrer promised that Berlin would never be bombed, and when it was, he had no political alternatives. Not even MvR could have prevented it, although I do think had he survived the first war he would have been maintained as a figurehead (much as Bismark) with no real strategic or operational impact. I believe it would have been impossible for him to cow to the National Socialists as a blue blood. And the head injury? Importantly, it would have also contributed to a progressive reclusiveness. My basic impression of MvR was that he was principle based; Udet was more a survivor. And Goering was the most self serving of all, and would have always played to the Fuehrer's tune to maneuver for power far more than MvR.

[oscardeuce]

Fun discussion.
The terror bombing of London was destined to happen, as it was a political emotional decision by the Fuehrer, not a sound military strategic one (although marketed as such). The Fuehrer promised that Berlin would never be bombed, and when it was, he had no political alternatives. Not even MvR could have prevented it, although I do think had he survived the first war he would have been maintained as a figurehead (much as Bismark) with no real strategic or operational impact. I believe it would have been impossible for him to cow to the National Socialists as a blue blood. And the head injury? Importantly, it would have also contributed to a progressive reclusiveness. My basic impression of MvR was that he was principle based; Udet was more a survivor. And Goering was the most self serving of all, and would have always played to the Fuehrer's tune to maneuver for power far more than MvR.

Spot on


MvR seemed to always be doing the right thing. He fought hard but fair. The Fuerher would have to have listended to him, and MvR would have had to recovered fromt he head wound. He may have been able to recover fully had he allowed himself to be grounded and under much less stress. Assuming his grounding allows him to survive the war, he may have made a full recovery by the time the National Socialist came to power.

Although a "blue blood" ( not a good thing medically by the way), he seemed to have that ability to appeal to the masses. He had to work hard at this as he was somewhat of a loner.

OK, I'm all in Hitler dies in the trenches and MvR rises to Fuerher....

[JohnB]

IF MvR had been a player in the Luftwaffe....what might of been his opinion on heavy bombers?

Following the death of whatshisname (sorry) the service didn't have a haevy bomber advocate.
If we're discussing the BoB, imagine what it would have been like with more capable bombers.

[JDK]

General Weaver, John.