Duxford collision

[Mudge]

We were just pulling out on the bus when the collision happened. I've seen as many stills and videos as I can find and still don't know what part of the P-51 was damaged. In everything I've seen, she still seems to have all the necessary parts attached. If the answer has already been posted, please direct me to it.

Mudge the curious

[Trey Carroll]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1310329995


You can see just below the star&bar and behind the radiator that there is damage. The control cables run back there, and the pilot said in an interview he had no elevator control I believe!

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

Mudge,

In most of the video I have seen it would appear that Big Beautiful Doll (BBD) would have remained flyable, however, I have seen a few video's where it appears that the Skyraider struck BBD just aft of the radiator scoop with enough force to have buckled the fuselage. The pilot made a split second decision to bail, and he did so at a very low altitude, with the loss of the plane. So, if you get a chance, take a real close look at some large close up video if you can find it, and you be the judge. But keep in mind of the overall sillouette of a Mustang in flight in your mind and then overlay it on BBD after the collision. Again, you be the judge.

Paul

[Mudge]

OK...Thanks...I can see where the fuselage seems to be bent downward just aft of the radiator exhaust.

Mudge the eagle eye

[TonyA]

FWIW You can see the damage to the underside here (larger and better enhanced version of the photo linked earlier):

[ktst97]

..... with the loss of the plane.
..... and you be the judge.
Again, you be the judge.

Paul

"Judge" what? The pilot survived getting rammed from behind while at low altitude. That is what matters.

[Stephan Wilkinson]

OK...Thanks...I can see where the fuselage seems to be bent downward just aft of the radiator exhaust.

Optical illusion. The fuselage isn't bent, it just appears to be because such a large chunk of it is gone from the bottom.

[SPANNERmkV]

Mudge,
Sorry BomberFlight and I didn't see you there.
We were near the Corner at the opposite end of the field when the whack occurred.
My take on it after seeing others photos and my own of the end result to the Skyraider is...
Poor BBD was whacked hard enough to take that much metal off and the Skyraider lost THIS much metal... BIG Badda-boom!


Big Beautiful Doll's pilot had to have been feeling that something fierce through the seat of his pants! Give the stick a wiggle... no response from the elevator and it is time to choose Door number One or Door number Two really fast.

SPANNER the Intrepid Traveller

[Mudge]

Mudge,
Sorry BomberFlight and I didn't see you there.
We were near the Corner at the opposite end of the field when the whack occurred.
My take on it after seeing others photos and my own of the end result to the Skyraider is...
Poor BBD was whacked hard enough to take that much metal off and the Skyraider lost THIS much metal... BIG Badda-boom!


Big Beautiful Doll's pilot had to have been feeling that something fierce through the seat of his pants! Give the stick a wiggle... no response from the elevator and it is time to choose Door number One or Door number Two really fast.

SPANNER the Intrepid Traveller

Well..."Bentwingbomber" invited us to the free beer tent. Expected to see a lot of WIXers there.

Mudge the freeloader

[51fixer]

FWIW You can see the damage to the underside here (larger and better enhanced version of the photo linked earlier):

The photo shows the "Good" side as the impact was on the other side.
PIC means Pilot in Command- or the one who make decisions.
My thought on the impact physics, (Not why it happened but why the collision forces happened in a certain way)-
AD was pulling hard G's- probably trying to avoid a collision AT THAT POINT.
Impact was upwards at an angle from the right in the area of the lower longeron or the strongest part of the structure in that area of the P-51.
Wing leading edge of the AD shreds through the thin skin until the spar contacts the longeron and is severally damaged and under the load imposed by the G's snaps.
Note the wing spar of the AD is probably stronger than the longeron of the P-51 so the failure is a combination of damage and forces imposed by the G's being pulled.
Wing skins between fwd and rear spars pull apart on the bottom surface and all the load on the affected portion of the wing are transferred to the rear spar which fails and snaps allowing the damaged outer wing to break off.
AD rotates into the failed wing twisting it away from further contact with the P-51. (Roll seen on the video)
Reason for my theory is the Aileron that remained full span could not have or barely contacted the P-51 as being much more fragile than the wing it should have broke off if contact was made. I have also seen a photo of the complete wing section sitting with the remains of the P-51. Other than the fracture line of contact and failure, it looks complete like you should be able to bolt it back on. The trailing edge of the tip is bent and a slight ripple in the leading edge part way between the fracture and the tip. I only saw the upper surface so I don't know what the lower surface looked like.
In essence IMO it was a perfect combination of placement of the contact areas, high loading of the AD and structure that failed in a certain way that allowed the P-51 to fly on and not lose it's tail all together.
The pilots transcript speaks of wanting to belly in a field but the nose dropped and he was unable to raise the nose so he abandoned the A/C. This follows the Video.
One other item is the video that shows the stability of an aircraft as the P-51 righted itself after the upset. More physics in action.

[Ken]

..... with the loss of the plane.
..... and you be the judge.
Again, you be the judge.

Paul

"Judge" what? The pilot survived getting rammed from behind while at low altitude. That is what matters.

Thank you for saying what I suspect many of us were thinking. And, thanks, Rich for your insight.

Did he deploy some wing flap in an effort to affect his pitch? No one may yet know. I count 10 or so seconds between canopy jettison and bailout. I suspect he was working the problem in the time allotted and, having no immediate success, made a good choice. It appears that he was the ultimate judge. We'll see what the final report says.

Ken

[Speedy]

With apologies to my brother for posting---he and I were just discussing another instance where a warbird pilot had to make the decision as to whether or not to get out. This was something Hacker sent me not 30 minutes ago:

The leading cause of fatalities in ejection seat aircraft is the failure to make a timely decision to eject. It's pilot nature to:

1) not want to get out of the airplane because it's scary
2) fear that you caused the problem you're currently in
3) try like hell to fix that problem so that you don't get in trouble for it

Thus many guys never pull the handles, or wait way too long to pull them and are out of the ejection envelope.

So, we teach kids that "the decision to eject is made on the ground". Meaning, know the circumstances in which you're going to leave the airplane, have specific altitudes, speeds, and malfunctions in mind, and then STICK TO IT.

Dudley also mentioned something in another thread about by the time you get the hours that Rob Davies has, you've already made up your mind what circumstances are 'stay with' and what are 'get out' before you ever strap into the plane..

[SPANNERmkV]

They had a FREE BEER TENT too???

There really is a Heaven

[51fixer]

..... with the loss of the plane.
..... and you be the judge.
Again, you be the judge.

Paul

"Judge" what? The pilot survived getting rammed from behind while at low altitude. That is what matters.

Thank you for saying what I suspect many of us were thinking. And, thanks, Rich for your insight.

Did he deploy some wing flap in an effort to affect his pitch? No one may yet know. I count 10 or so seconds between canopy jettison and bailout. I suspect he was working the problem in the time allotted and, having no immediate success, made a good choice. It appears that he was the ultimate judge. We'll see what the final report says.

Ken

The 1st thing he did was release the canopy probably in as little time as it took to regain some senses and reach for the handle. I think that went 3-4 seconds after the collision.
I suspect that in being at 1000" after the jolt and thinking about landing quickly in a field he might have pulled the throttle and selected the 1st setting of flap.
Possibly when the aircraft was thrown around by the impact his hand might have hit the flap handle or possibly moved on its own due to mass and inertia.
Could that have pitched him down, probably would have been an influence at the least.
Doesn't really matter though it was a happy ending to a bad event.
The report could make for a good read. The CAA or the Dept responsible for such matters usually goes pretty in depth in these investigations.

[Lynn Allen]

..... with the loss of the plane.
..... and you be the judge.
Again, you be the judge.

Paul

"Judge" what? The pilot survived getting rammed from behind while at low altitude. That is what matters.

Thank you for saying what I suspect many of us were thinking. And, thanks, Rich for your insight.

Did he deploy some wing flap in an effort to affect his pitch? No one may yet know. I count 10 or so seconds between canopy jettison and bailout. I suspect he was working the problem in the time allotted and, having no immediate success, made a good choice. It appears that he was the ultimate judge. We'll see what the final report says.

Ken

I think he brought in the 1st notch of flaps to slow the A/C for the pattern. In the video, just as the Skyraider is arriving, you can see the flaps out...