Simulated Interceptions

[daveymac82c]

Hi guys and gals,

From the thread on Miss Mitchell getting her turrets running I thought of something that I figured deserved its own thread so it wouldn't take away from the original one.

Has there ever been, or do you think they could ever organize a "Mock bomber interception?"

I would be curious to see if there could be an event put together that would have a formation of say 3-5 bombers (most likely B-25's), and a handful of interceptors (most likely P-51's) that could re-enact a bomber squadron being intercepted by fighters, and have the fighters replicate the type of attack that would have been seen by WWII bomber crews.

I suggest the B-25's and P-51's simply due to their surviving numbers, but would be even more excited to see BF/ME-109's as the fighters and perhaps other kinds of "bombers" too, like B-17's, B-24's, or Lancasters.

I think it would be a tremendous experience to be in any one of the airplanes involved and if they could sell seats aboard the bombers I think they could charge a considerably high amount (Or maybe sell seats on an observing DC-3/C-47 inserted into the formation).

Now, as I came up with this idea, I also considered the safety of doing something like this. I think that with enough coordination it could be done very safely. Strict SOP's and limits would need to be adhered to, and beyond that I can't see any other significant safety concerns. The tracking of hits could be done like those aerial combat laser systems... however those work.

Maybe to pay fo it, it could also be made into a reality tv show... wouldn't that be cool? Like where a film crew would follow a group of early 20's guys through their bomber/gunner training to the point where they actually get to fly aboard the "real deal" while at the same time other early 20's guys are getting trained as interceptor pilots and eventually get to fly in a two seat fighter. Then the final episode would have the bombers carry out a bombing mission on an actual target while the fighters try and stop them. I think it would be a very historically significant television program.

History channel are you listening?

I remember similar programs have been done before, with a bomber command crew here in Canada with CWH's Lancaster, and also in England with fighter pilots in one of the two seat Spitfires)

Spitfire Aces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVnV0pm5TA (darn, I'm going to be watching this all night now)
Bomber Boys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek4wHfshRGw (darn again, gotta download/buy this one too)

Peace,

David M (Future pilot of Tiger Moth/Harvard/Spitfire/P-40/P-51/P-39/Mosquito)

[RyanShort1]

I wouldn't want to be in either plane unless it was very tame, and that wouldn't be extremely realistic.

Ryan

[tulsaboy]

Not to shoot daveymac down, and Ryan please correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that the FAA is cracking down (at least here in OK) on warbird/vintage pilots carrying non-pilot passengers during formation flights. The pilots I have talked to here locally have said that while it has always been against the rules, it is now becoming an area of emphasis for some of the inspectors here. I would think that they would look down on a group of B-25s or B-17s loaded with passengers, flying in WWII-accurate tight formations, heading straight into a group of P-51s that also had passengers on board. Seems to be a really dangerous idea to me, at least with all of the passengers on board. I would think the pilots of said aircraft, trying to perform such maneuvers, might want to keep their focus on flying and not on entertaining their passengers.

kevin

[Tiger Tim]

I always thought it would be a hoot to be out flying one of the very few Bf-109s in the world (or Buchons, I'm not picky) and go out hunting for bombers enroute to an airshow. Anyone wanna lend me a -109 for a couple hours this season?

-Tim

[RyanShort1]

It's certainly illegal to carry passengers for hire in formation.

Ryan

[turret nate]

I was lucky enough to fly as crew in B25 Miss Mitchell for the 2010 Doolittle Reunion. We flew down in loose formation with B25s Betty's Dream and Lady Luck. We flew over Volk Field WI (air force base) and were "intercepted" by two black hawks. Its was pretty neat!

I know there was some issues on the last day of the reunion when all 17 B25s flew in formation over the air force museum. If I remember right the pilots had to be formation qualified to be within a certain distance of other aircraft. I do remember it was a crew only thing, no paid riders were allowed.

The interception idea is good but appears to have some challenges. I suppose it would be neat to see from the ground but the distance would make it hard to notice the turret work / simulated arial gunnery.

[mlenoch]

Intercepts like this:


VL

[JohnB]

Maybe to pay fo it, it could also be made into a reality tv show... wouldn't that be cool? Like where a film crew would follow a group of early 20's guys through their bomber/gunner training to the point where they actually get to fly aboard the "real deal" while at the same time other early 20's guys are getting trained as interceptor pilots and eventually get to fly in a two seat fighter. Then the final episode would have the bombers carry out a bombing mission on an actual target while the fighters try and stop them. I think it would be a very historically significant television program.
History channel are you listening?
Peace,
David M (Future pilot of Tiger Moth/Harvard/Spitfire/P-40/P-51/P-39/Mosquito)

The BBC (or another UK network, but I believe it was the BBC) has done something like that.
As I recall, it took current RAF pilots and training them in a two-seat Spitfire.
And they may have done a another similar series.

A question on the FlyPast Forum could provide more (and better) details.

[daveymac82c]

My original concept for this interception idea was obviously not a full out life-or-death kind of attack; that would be dangerous. But, I'm surprised that there's a crackdown on passengers during formation flights.

With training formation flying is not a seriously life threatening activity. Sure it's harder than flying solo, than in a tight formation, but to the same extent taildraggers are impossible to fly, while tricycle gear airplanes are the only safe option. Note my sarcasm. Just because something is harder doesn't mean it should be banned. We all know airplanes have more potential for catastrophic disaster than cars and boats, but we still do it because we as the aviation community make it safe. Pilots just need to be trained to a proficienty level then there really shouldn't be an issue.

Rant ended....

So, back to the topic. I'd suggest that the safest way to do execute my idea would be to have everything planned before hand, just like an aerobatic display. Every turn, every climb, descent, attack, turn.... Have a game plan that is strictly adhered to. I guess it would be more like a Disney ride without the rails, and nearly as safe, but the riders won't know that it's the same very time.

Besides that idea, I also asked whether anything like it has been done before. Maybe not on such a grand scale, but can anyone remember or recall instances where a warbird bomber (with no non-crew onboard) has been "jumped" by fighters (with no non-crew onboard)?

Peace,

David M

[Booshka]

David,

As someone who has flown for a number of years with a FAST 2-ship card and just this last Saturday upgraded to a 4-ship I can attest that yes in fact formation flying IS (if done correctly) in fact a "seriously life threatening activity". All training does is teach you about safety and help to mitigate the risk.

There have been many people throughout history with hundred or thousands of hours of formation flight that still die in accidents (think XB-70 vs. F-104, or think of any number of Blue Angel or Thunderbird accidents). Any level of training will not eliminate that ever-present risk. Shtuff happens...

For us formation pilots we are willing to accept that risk for the pleasure of completing a challenging activity. For the camaraderie of putting up a number of ships in a well-flown formation with a number of like-minded people, and having everyone come back safe and sound.

Here in the USA the FAA has said that there will be NO formation flight of any kind for compensation or hire. There are a number of organizations that skirt the rules (i.e. become a member of our museum and the flight is thrown in free - therefore you aren't really "buying" the flight) and the FAA is watching as the number of museums and "foundations" multiplies and the number of people paying for rides in these aircraft increase dramatically.

BTW - after talking with the local FSDO a really loose formation seems to be OK with the FAA - separation of 500' laterally is acceptable.

Your idea is a great one. I've thought about it myself. But in the current regulatory environment it just isn't possible to do with paying passengers onboard.

thx
=B=

[m charters]

I am sure a number of Wixers have been intercepted (in the good ole days) in some shape or form. I recall being in the tail turret of Fuddy Duddy when a P-51 (Six Shooter) and a P-40 came up vertically from below out of nowhere and scared the &#*! out of me at Geneseo one year! Can just imagine how those wartime crews must have felt if they never saw them coming and had tracers suddenly going by.

[shrike]

I recall a story a fellow I used to know liked to tell. He flew B-36's.
Whenever they undertook a long cross country flight, they knew they became a target of opportunity to whatever fighter squadrons were based along the route. He said the first attack pass was often a surprise. They knew when it was likely, since they knew where the bases were, but they usually flew along lying doggo anyway.
The second pass was a different story. By the time the fighters had recovered and lined up to make their next trip, the order had been given to 'run out the guns' He said you could see the pilots 'stumble' as they came back around into the muzzles of a dozen 20mm cannon, with every radar warning light flashing.
Rarely did they make a third pass<G>

[kalamazookid]

I remember going for a Grumman Widgeon ride at an airshow in northern Michigan and getting "jumped" by a P-51

I'm sure informal "jumpings" happen quite a bit, but coordinating something for an experience would extremely difficult even if were legal. It's a cool idea though. It would be awesome to have a B-17 or two fly overhead, get intercepted by an FW190 or Bf109 and then have the P-51s chase them off. Probably about the closest we'll ever get is seeing tail chases at airshows however.