lake erie aircraft wrecks.... both u.s. & canadian side.

[tom d. friedman]

talked to 1 of the top lake erie wreckchasers today, i sell her 3 books at my store, good sellers!! her & her husband have found hundreds of wrecks on both the canadian & u.s. side of the lake, 95% ships. however, she stated that they've dived both sides of the lake many times. some aircraft verified in the lake is around 30. some cessna aircraft over the last few decades, a p-3 orion?? canadian side, verified grumman avengers canadian side, a dehavilland dove u.s. side, lost 1932, u.s. side. never heard of the type. i'd be very curious as the info is fresh.

[whistlingdeath77]

thanks for the info. any corsairs still left?

[Dan K]

I'd be curious, too. First Dove flew in 1945.

[rcaf_100]

Sounds neat.

Through our Dive Recovery Team at CHAA I've heard about a Harvard wreck and possibly a Yale as well near the Dunnville/Port Colbourne area.
I saw photos of the Harvard wreck and she's pretty smashed up since it was a high speed impact.

I know that there's supposed to be an Avenger off Port Stanley as well.

The only problem with Lake Erie wrecks is that since the lake is so shallow, everything above a depth of 75 feet eventually gets crushed by ice.

[The Inspector]

Sopwith built +/- 10 'DOVES' around 1918/1919. One still exists I believe @ Old Warden, looks like a two seat CAMEL-

[JDK]

OK - The Sopwith Dove was a civilian two seat Sopwith Pup. Wood/fabric construction, rotary engine, none recorded sold to USA. Ten built. One sold to Canada as G-CAAY in 1920, two others sold abroad, no destination noted. Others to Sweden, Australia. Shuttleworth's Sopwith Pup is an ex-Dove, and another Dove was restored and flying in the 1990s in the UK. Chances of remains from a crash as late as 1932 (for a 1919/20 type) extremely remote.

The de Havilland Dove was a postwar twin engine feederliner, very successful type. Stressed skin construction, used worldwide, including Canada and the US.

[Tiger Tim]

I suspect the 1932 bit is in reference to the type he had never heard of. Either way, I'm sure Tom will be back tomorrow to clear it up.

-Tim

[tom d. friedman]

i'm back as predicted but a little confused. my best friend who was the head air traffic controller at cleveland hopkins int. airport said he tracked the loss off vermilion ohio in the early 70's, which is where the pro diver told me that is where it is the same yesterday, but she told me crashed 1932. jdk said the same thing as my buddy as to the aircraft's lineage & age, & another poster suggested the dove came out in 1945. i'd like to see a pic of 1.

[JDK]

The de Havilland Dove came out in 1945 as Dan K said, indeed.

Welcome to Google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Dove

Sopwith Dove images:
http://www.google.com/search?q=sopwith+ ... 20&bih=652

[oscardeuce]

Was there any mention of a Corsair in Lake Erie near Kelley's Island?

[The Inspector]

JDK,
I'm not so sure about that. Footage has been shown on TV programs of very complete 1840's sailing ships on the bottom of Lake Superior so intact that you can clearly recognize cargo in the holds and rigging as being rope not eaten away or covered with critters. Granted, they are on the lower edge of where humans an go without a submersable and that's also why they have been placed on the 'don't touch' lists. It could be possible that portions of a wreck from 1932 might be found, any ideas as to where the one 'DOVE' shipped to Canada went and went to?

I believe that the remains of a Revolutionary War U.S. fighting ship (can't recall it's name or it's Captain @ the moment) exists in very recognizable form on the bottom of Lake Champlain (?). Lots to be said for very deep, dark, cold, fresh water.

[Russ Matthews]

I believe that the remains of a Revolutionary War U.S. fighting ship (can't recall it's name or it's Captain @ the moment) exists in very recognizable form on the bottom of Lake Champlain (?).

That would be the aptly named (for this forum anyway) gunboat, Spitfire.

http://www.lcmm.org/shipwrecks_history/shipwrecks/spitfire.htm

[tom d. friedman]

it's tail has that post war distinctive shape from dehavilland.

[JDK]

JDK,
I'm not so sure about that.

I am.

Unlike some, I use English precisely. I said "Chances of remains from a crash ... extremely remote". Not impossible, but highly unlikely. To go further:

It is certain there's not a 1932 de Havilland Dove in the lake, because the type doesn't exist.

If one of <3 examples of a very rare Sopwith Dove a wood/fabric type went into the lake in 1932 (after 12 years flying / existence) as a rotary powered type - itself highly improbable) then it would probably be severely damaged. The structure of a 1919 aircraft is wood like a ship, but otherwise has almost nothing in common; from waterproofing /resistance to size of structural members. I agree the conditions are often benign to such wooden structures and remarkably light materials - but this specific case? Possible, but not at all likely. (I'm well aware of fresh water ship survival - boarded a couple myself after they've been returned to working order at the Windermere Steamboat Museum. ) But, again, while it's possible, how much would you bet on it? At the very best you've got several 'one in a hundred chances', each one hundredth of the previous probability.

That's assuming the identification is in some aspect correct - as it stands, either the type or the date is wrong - given that, you'd be cautious of given weight to the rest of the identification.

So, very unlikely. It'd be interesting if the 1932 date is correct what might've happened then, and in the unlikely event of it being a Sopwith Dove ditching, I'd certainly find it interesting - but I won't be expecting to find the remains. A '1962' de Havilland Dove ditching? Much more likely, just as worthless to recover.

Of course they may have gold aboard too. All the good wreck stories have to feature that or Ame... nah.

Regards,

[The Inspector]

Oh I agree, I was simply attempting to increase awareness in some who may think that any sunken vessel turns into a Spanish Galleon overnight, nothing but ballast rocks and encrusted cannon and anchors by pointing out that wooden vessels over 230 years old can survive in optimum conditions, sort of like the corpses found in German peat bogs that can be several hundred years old but in incredible condition.

I also agree that it would be almost impossible to locate something that fragile. and hopefully never implied that if found the fabric would pass a Mullins test Green A.I never said De Havilland DOVE, that was someone else in this thread, I was just curious to know if you had any ideas as to who might have been the owner of that single frail Sopwith in Canada so many years ago, and how long the odds are that this one in ten total built would wind up in the Great White North.