VFM's F-86F, s/n 52-4689

[Fouga23]

This has been bugging me for a few days now and I am wondering what the opinion of other people is.

VFM has an ex-Bolivian Sabre they plan on restoring. The plan is to put it in 322nd colours of Foster AFB, Texas as it flew with this unit for 6 months. However it's total US history was only 2 years. After those 2 years it was sold to Venezuela. They flew it for 13 years. In 1973 it was again sold to Bolivia and there is where in my opinion it's true history lays. It served in Bolivia for 20 years until it was finally retired in 1993 and imported back into the US. Now we have a Sabre that was used by Bolivia for 20 years and only 6 months in Texas. It is still in it's original Bolivia AF colors and is internally in great condition and basically a time capsule.
In my opinion it's true value as a historical museum piece lays in it's Bolivian history and it should be restored and displayed as such. Bolivia was the last military user of the Sabre if I remember correctly. The original paint is also important if you look at how modern national AF museums are run. In these days it is more about preservation in some cases then restoration to like new condition. A good example of this is Corsair KD431 (google it )

Now I can also understand VFM's position that they want it in Texas colors. But I wonder what other forum members think. Is a brief local link more imported then it's long Bolivian history? Please share your opinion, but keep it civil.
Here some pictures of it I shamefully stole from SecondAirForce's posts in the Chuckie thread :p

[The Inspector]

It's their airplane so I'd say let them do whatever they want to. If they decide to paint it 1970 BARRACUDA Grass Green with big pink and red circles, drive on. Didn't we have this sort of discussion about 2 1/2 years ago over a recovered and rebuilt P-51 and how it should be re painted and it seems as I recall that got pretty heated.
One of the things that irritates me about the MoF in Seattle is, the sponsor of the aircraft gets to choose the paint scheme, which is why the FG-1 fished out of Lake Washington is painted the way it (inaccurately) is and the B-17F while done to 'factory fresh' sports a piece of nose art.
As mentioned in another thread about this airframe, 99 out of 100 people who would see it if redone in Bolivian markings wouldn't know Bolivia from a bologna sandwich (geography tests on the public proves this), just watch Lenos 'Jay Walking' segment, then the 'whydinchas? would start. Paint it and display photos of how it looked in Bolivian markings along with info explaining the history of Foster AFB and it's role in 1950's history.

Last edited by The Inspector on Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[deskpro590]

I agree with the Inspector. It is the VFMs aircraft and they should paint it as they wish, and most people would not know the difference between Bolivian and Kuwaiti markings. I do like the Texas makrings (biased on that one though). I'm just glad to have that in my backyard...

[warbird2]

If the Bolivian's want it in their colors, I am sure they can buy the plane. As it is now in a Texas museum and that museum wants to paint it to show the Texas part of its history, let them paint it in those colors. In addition to most people not knowing where Bolivia is or anything about it, I do not think that many people care about that countrys military history.

I personally do not care for the time capsul look of airplanes that are conserved. I saw the P-38 at the Udvar-Hazy place and even if it is authentic it still looks trashy. The P-61 looks even worse.

[K5DH]

Sorry Fouga23, as I explained in the other thread, your objections have some merit and have been noted, but for the good of the Museum, the decision is made. For what it's worth, I plan to carefully document (photographically) the FAB markings before the paint is stripped away, and I intend to put together signboards detailing as much as possible about the Sabre's entire life history, including her USAF, FAV, and FAB service. (I haven't found much yet about her FAV and FAB service; any and all links, photos, and leads will be much appreciated)

(For those who may not know: FAV = Fuerza Aerea Venezolana; FAB = Fuerza Aerea Boliviana)

If anyone has any of the cockpit instruments that are missing in the photo above, would you please consider donating them? Donations of parts, manuals, photos, and CASH $$$ are always appreciated, too! All donors' names will be added to the "Thank You" list on the signboard. Anyone care to donate a J-47 engine?

We'd really like to acquire the cradle that holds the rear fuselage and empennage group when the airplane gets split apart to do engine changes. Any leads appreciated. (We're thinking about installing an engine and displaying the jet with the tail off and some mannequins dressed in mechanics' garb, as if service was being performed; the public enjoys displays like that!)

We do have a pair of drop tanks and pylons, which will be added to the jet at some point. They're stored away for now.

Cheers,
Dean K5DH
Vintage Flying Museum
Crew chief, F-86F 52-4689

[Obergrafeter]

We had an L-8 painted in FAB colors and not one person in 10,000 knew what it meant. Researched the colors at the Traditions Museum at Lackland and interviewed Bolivian students at the Language School to get it right, but few appreciated it.

This has been bugging me for a few days now and I am wondering what the opinion of other people is.

VFM has an ex-Bolivian Sabre they plan on restoring. The plan is to put it in 322nd colours of Foster AFB, Texas as it flew with this unit for 6 months. However it's total US history was only 2 years. After those 2 years it was sold to Venezuela. They flew it for 13 years. In 1973 it was again sold to Bolivia and there is where in my opinion it's true history lays. It served in Bolivia for 20 years until it was finally retired in 1993 and imported back into the US. Now we have a Sabre that was used by Bolivia for 20 years and only 6 months in Texas. It is still in it's original Bolivia AF colors and is internally in great condition and basically a time capsule.
In my opinion it's true value as a historical museum piece lays in it's Bolivian history and it should be restored and displayed as such. Bolivia was the last military user of the Sabre if I remember correctly. The original paint is also important if you look at how modern national AF museums are run. In these days it is more about preservation in some cases then restoration to like new condition. A good example of this is Corsair KD431 (google it )

Now I can also understand VFM's position that they want it in Texas colors. But I wonder what other forum members think. Is a brief local link more imported then it's long Bolivian history? Please share your opinion, but keep it civil.
Here some pictures of it I shamefully stole from SecondAirForce's posts in the Chuckie thread :p

While I understand the sentiment some might have for maintaining the Sabre in Belgian colors, I like to see F-86F Sabres in USAF markings, especially the colorful mid-fifties paint schemes. I look forward to seeing this one in the Foster AFB, TX vintage markings.

[Sabremech]

Hi Fouga,
I can understand your sentiment, but have to agree with the VFM. Our Sabre spent most of it's avtive duty life in Argentina and was painted very similiar to the Bolivian scheme. Although we have it's history listed on our website, it's most important to us painted as a tribute to those who flew them in the Korean conflict. Our's never made it to Korea, but served at Nellis AFB as part of a training wing.
I do believe when it's here in the USA and you are looking for an audience, it's American service life or history is what will connect with them. I'd love to change the paint scheme on ours every couple of years to give it a new identity and honor a different unit, but it is cost prohibitive and I haven't convinced our owner yet.
So as it reverts back to an American service scheme, remember that the actual history of the airframe has not changed and I'm sure that the VFM will tell people where their Sabre has been like we do with ours.

David Staffeldt
Warbird Heritage Foundation

[Clifford Bossie]

The FAB scheme certainly has appeal and I can understand the desire to keep the airplane in those markings in light of much of its career being with that nation. But dang, the 322nd FDG scheme was awesome!

[JohnB]

I do believe when it's here in the USA and you are looking for an audience, it's American service life or history is what will connect with them.
David Staffeldt
Warbird Heritage Foundation

Well said!
Besides, paint it in USAF markings as a tribute to the Ameican taxpayers that paid for the thing!

[Fouga23]

Thanks for your opinions guys! Also, it's great to hear what everyone thinks without it turning ugly
THX!

[K5DH]

Thanks for your opinions guys! Also, it's great to hear what everyone thinks without it turning ugly
THX!

Definitely! Bravo, WIXers!

Now, here's an image that I scanned from Squadron/Signal's book, "F-86 Sabre in Color" by Larry Davis, which shows what our jet will eventually look like:



I hope I don't get sued over using that image. . .

Cheers,
Dean K5DH

[K5DH]

No purpose for this post, just a shot of me 'n my baby!



Cheers,
Dean K5DH
Vintage Flying Museum
Crew Chief, F-86F s/n 52-4689

[Tiger Tim]

The yellow dots/stripes/whatever are just a side effect of scanning the image, right? Otherwise what a cool paint scheme, lots of character on that Sabre.

-Tim

[K5DH]

The yellow dots/stripes/whatever are just a side effect of scanning the image, right?

Yep. I couldn't get the image to scan any better. Our paint scheme may not include the tri-color fuselage stripes. The image depicts the wing CO's ship, which ours isn't. I need to do some more research to figure out what stripes, if any, our color scheme needs to have.

In the mean time, we'd be happy to accept donations of cash, parts, manuals, ground support equipment, etc. . .