Recovering airframes from ships torpedowed enroute to europe

[agent86]

This is a topic that I have brought up here numerous times in the past.During the war many ships were sunk on the run between the U.S. and either Europe or Russia.These planes were at the very least slathered in cosmoline and or Crated or both.I have recently been watching a show on cable called "Treasure hunters" or something similar.They were roaming the English channel looking for targets and came across many.They spent much time and effort exploring many worthless wrecks looking for any chance at a profit.They even went to the trouble and experience of retrieving champaigne bottles from a container ship lost too many years ago.The bubbly was NFG.How many people have seen the pictures of P-47's being unloaded dockside in England. Not only are they completely cocooned but I can guarantee you that all surfaces are coated in cosmoline.Cosmoline would have kept king tut as fresh as the day he died without the wrapping.If they can afford to recover wine turned to vinegar ,cant they recover something a little more valuable?Time is running short for this possible score.Just my opion(Maybe I'm rambling.Huminahuminahumina sugar)

[PinecastleAAF]

I just don't see it happening for a multitude of reasons. I also doubt the aircraft were slathered with cosmoline. I'd say forget about it. You'd spend a huge amount of money for nothing. Also some of those ships carried bombs too. BANG! Lots of floating grouper and divers.

[tom d. friedman]

unfortunately not enough working oxygen & money to make such an endeavor feasible. i've thought about it myself over the years.

[JDK]

Lots already covered here.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38865

[agent86]

I also doubt the aircraft were slathered with cosmoline.

I have read many accounts over the years from ground crews reassembling these planes and having to wipe them off with rags soaked in gasoline to remove the cosmoline.Trust me they were coated to prevent corrosion during the ocean transit.Whether or not this matters now is open for discussion.

[Robbie Roberts]

I also doubt the aircraft were slathered with cosmoline.

I have read many accounts over the years from ground crews reassembling these planes and having to wipe them off with rags soaked in gasoline to remove the cosmoline.Trust me they were coated to prevent corrosion during the ocean transit.Whether or not this matters now is open for discussion.

First, they were coated only enough for a relatively short exposure to ocean spray and such, and to be easily removed once arrived. They were not cocooned to the level required for long term storage.

The really neat thing about cosmoline is that it tends to work both ways- It keeps moisture out, but, if damaged, it allows moisture in, and will not let it back out. Ask any military vehicle collector who has purchased a "New-In Cosmoline" item only to have it arrive with the cosmoline only slightly damaged, and the part useless because of storage issues which allowed moisture to penetrate the cosmoline barrier. What should be a nice, shiny new camshaft for an engine will turn out to be something in relatively good shape, but with localized severe exfoliation corrosion issues. Better yet, something where the cosmoline is not applied directly to the item, but to a wrapper around it, and then sealed, etc. The moisture gets in, and has a shot at the whole part.

I would suggest that sinkings were not always the most gentle of methods. Aircraft on the deck would be breaking loose and sinking independently, while those in the holds would be crashing against one-another as the ship was torpedoed, rolled, or just plain asank after he explosion. It is not "boom, sink, settle smooth"- usually there is great structural damage, jumping, jostling, etc, coupled with a rotation as the vessel takes water, and sinks, with continued breaking up on the way to the bottom. Not complete, but enough to be a potential deterrant to continued cosmoline protection.

Then there is also the hazard of diving the wreck to remove the aircraft. The cosmoline, were it intact in the first place, would certainly be damaged with attempts to extract the plane.

If you want to see pics of aircraft wrecks in-situ in sunken ships holds, I suggest doing a google search- there are plenty of videos of them from the South Pacific...

[PinecastleAAF]

First, they were coated only enough for a relatively short exposure to ocean spray and such, and to be easily removed once arrived. They were not cocooned to the level required for long term storage.

Precisely.

[agent86]

I'm thinking that until someone takes a looksie,We can argue this point till we are all blue in the face.I cant prove you wrong nor you me.If they can afford to bring up wine turned to vinegar,I'm guessing that it just might be worth their while to take a look.Until then,Lets not get carried away

[DoraNineFan]

I think it would be a less expensive endeavor to go after a freshwater wreck in the hundreds of European lakes. And it would be in far better condition.

It wouldn't be impossible to recover from sunken ships if you found something of value, but just thinking about the use of heavy equipment to open up a cargo hold and lift objects from several hundred feet of water in rolling seas makes me think that task would be very difficult.

[PinecastleAAF]

I cant prove you wrong nor you me.

I don't really think it is a matter of anyone being wrong or right. You asked a question and we answered it simple as that.

[Iclo]

I'm not a diver but I sail in the Channel and in the North Sea, and the simple steam (correct word for movement of water during the tide ?) is a difficult factor: lot of sand in suspension, very low visibility, etc

For example, the simple cut in part of a sunked car carrier in the channel, in 30ft of water was, a few years ago, very difficult.

And as others poster, I think that the condition of a plane after the shipwrek and more than 60 years in salt water, will give plane in worst condition than Glacier Girl was

Last edited by Iclo on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[rwdfresno]

I can guarantee you that all surfaces are coated in cosmoline

I can assure you that even if every external surface was coated in cosmoline (which I can't offer any info either way), the internal surfaces were certainly not coated. After a couple of minutes in the water, no doubt the entire aircraft would be filled with water seeping into every air gap, surrounding all of the internal structures.

I'm thinking that until someone takes a looksie,We can argue this point till we are all blue in the face.I cant prove you wrong nor you me.

There are numerous examples of aircraft discovered in salt water and none of them are of condition that they have much if any monitary value. Cosmoline isn't going to protect against anything that has been submerged especially when only one side of the surface has been coated. I think unfrotunately the burden of proof is on you due to the these numerous examples of discovered submerged artifiacts.

Ryan

[Jesse C.]

Aren't most of these ship wrecks considered war graves? Wouldn't this be like saying we should go digging for medals in a war cemetary?

[John Dupre]

I have seen plenty of photos of aircraft as deck cargo not covered in anything more substantial than a few tarps. Many aircraft were coated in something called spraylat, I believe it was a plastic like coating similar to what is used today at AMARC, that was designed to be easily removable and after 65+ years would hardly survive itself. There are enough big wheels involved in collecting warbirds who want something unusual to bring to Oshkosh that I don't doubt that several of them have explored the possibility of ocean recoveries. That none of them have pursued it probably shows that it is impractical.

As an aside I think the long term future of this movement, at least as regards WW2 era aircraft is going to be in accurate reproductions including eventually right down to the engines. If New Zealand can produce brand new airworthy LeRhone rotary engines and Germany can make reproduction propeller blades then there is no limit to what can be made.

[DoraNineFan]

Well if the cosmoline coatings were as thorough as alleged, then the aircraft would be watertight and would just be simply floating around in the Altantic after all of these years.

Then all of us treasure hunters could go out and make it look as easy as they do on TV.