Fuel question for the jet WIXer's

[Enemy Ace]

I have heard mention of "Agricultural Kerosene" as being a possible fuel for experimental registered jets such as Mig's etc. I understand it has a red dye tint?
Does anyone operate on this stuff? apparently if you have some kind of farm or can provide some kind of documentation this fuel grade kerosene is available much cheaper than regular Jet A. (Less tax per gallon?)
Sounds like it would be perfect for the old communist stuff at least, especially if you had a small fuel farm to properly filter it and maintain quality control. If nothing else could be used as a blend?
just curious. -Robert

[The Inspector]

The dye is added to prevent you from driving your F-350 on the highways and byways using untaxed fuel that's suppoda be in ya Johann Deere. Taxed diesel is usually tinted blue. If the revinooers check your pick up tank and find farm red, it's a pretty stiff fine.

[One-0-Wonder]

It's actually just diesel fuel that's not taxed and as indicated above, is dyed so it's not used in non-farm vehicles. While you could run a jet engine on diesel, I wouldn't fly it. Diesel has a lot of waxes in it along with other impurities, and when exposed to the double digit negative temps at altitude, the waxes will congeal causing filters to plug,boost and transfer pumps to not pump, and then, well, things start to go downhill from there.

[RickH]

when exposed to the double digit negative temps at altitude

Yes sir, Mr. FAA, sir, I have to bomb around at 500 ft at 500 kts, cause I can't fly very high because I run farm diesel in my jet aircraft !! Every nickel saved helps, I suppose !

[brucev]

I've heard stories of turbine powered ag planes burning #2 diesel and perhaps farm diesel on occasion. Fuel nozzle issues due to the impurities found in diesel are enough to scare me away, maybe a Walters engine since it uses a slinger ring instead of nozzles could get away with it?

[JDK]

Save cash, pay with your life, and the lives of others? There was a fatal accident in the UK with a (piston) PT trainer using car fuel. Different engine type, exactly the same problem. I was there, it was not a great contribution to an otherwise special fly in.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 500172.pdf

As outlined by One o Wonder above, and in the report above, using fuel inappropriate for the task will have unforeseen effects on the engine.

[krlang]

Well,
I guess this leads to the question...

I guess you would have to own a fuel farm to be able to feed a vintage jet instead of paying retail right?

[The Inspector]

[jet1]

100% bio created fuel. Virgin Air successfully flew a 747 on biojet...Mr (Sir) Branson is not a nay sayer. the one problem is that at altitude the biojet gets gelatinous unless heated. additives are being experimented with to solve this issue as well. Sorry but i'm biased!

[Obergrafeter]

The dyed fuel cops are actually IRS agents and if they catch you burning dyed fuel in your F-350 it can start out as a $10,000 fine.

[RickH]

100% bio created fuel. Virgin Air successfully flew a 747 on biojet...Mr (Sir) Branson is not a nay sayer. the one problem is that at altitude the biojet gets gelatinous unless heated. additives are being experimented with to solve this issue as well. Sorry but i'm biased!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a cheaper alternative, I just don't believe red diesel will be in our aviation future.

[eze240]

I used to work in aviation fueling...among other things.....so, here's my 2 cents:
Kerosene, diesel and jet fuel are all, essentially interchangeable....that is, you could burn any of them in a turbine engine, or run a diesel engine on any of them as well....been there done that.
The problem is that diesel is, as previously stated, "dirtier" having a number of additives, including, if I remember correctly, lubricants for diesel injector pumps.
I suppose it would be reasonable to run a crop duster on farm diesel....problem is, alot of farm/off road fuels are lower quality than the highway stuff......
Of course, it can't be much worse than jet B, or some other stuff available in places like south america, africa,etc...
Jet A has several additives as well, to prevent freezing, algae growth, etc.....
As to planes using auto fuel....... well, I've seen a few types allowed to use auto gas....like a piper pacer? Using auto fuels requires a lot of care.....watching for contamination,etc.... due to auto fuels not having the higher quality of avgas as well as lower octane,etc.....
I do believe that most migs/russian/ soviet aircraft were made to operate on poor quality fuels.... but, I wouldn't try running an american/western design on anything less than Jet A........
The difference between farm diesel and road diesel, aside from dyes and perhaps quality is that taxes make up probably 2/3 to 1/2 of the pump price..... I recall several years ago running a steam locomotive on diesel..... we were paying $1.50 a gallon for hwy diesel, off road was maybe $.75 and fuel oil would have been about $.50, but we couldn't afford to buy it by the tanker load.........

[JDK]

100% bio created fuel. Virgin Air successfully flew a 747 on biojet...Mr (Sir) Branson is not a nay sayer. the one problem is that at altitude the biojet gets gelatinous unless heated. additives are being experimented with to solve this issue as well. Sorry but i'm biased!

There's a world of difference between developing a new fuel (which, frankly, is essential) and 'redneck engineering' - grabbing something not designed for the job and taking chances.

[The Inspector]

Back in the early 70's during the first fuel crisis (WHAT!?! 76 cents a gallon? Robbery!!) there was a great deal of interest in 'mogas' in light aircraft. works great until you get below the barometric levels automotive gasolines are blended to run in. As the barometric pressure lessens as altitude is gained, the car gas is prone to weird flame front issues and severe to destructive detonation will follow before you've gotten to a 'decent' altitude. Drive an older, carburetor car to the top of Pikes Peak for a demonstration, especially one using standard breaker point ignition.

[RickH]

works great until you get below the barometric levels automotive gasolines are blended to run in.

From the EPA:

Guide to Federal and State Summer RVP Standards for Conventional Gas Only

Volatility is the property of a liquid fuel that defines its evaporation characteristics. RVP is an abbreviation for "Reid vapor pressure," a common measure of and generic term for gasoline volatility. EPA regulates the vapor pressure of gasoline sold at retail stations during the summer ozone season (June 1 to September 15) to reduce evaporative emissions from gasoline that contribute to ground-level ozone and diminish the effects of ozone-related health problems.

Called Reid vapor pressure. We used to have issues down here in the south when they would ship the remnant winter fuel down for us to burn in the early summer. There were cases when the fuel would boil in a an outboard motor tank at 80 deg F.at sea level. Caused all kinds of problems because the lighter components of the fuel ( octane ) was boiling off. The govt finally stooped the fuel companies from doing that. Adding altitude compounds the problem.