P-51 44-73079 help

[evanflys]

Hi guys!
My good friend Eddie Andreini bought Bob Loves P-51 and I wrote the "United States Air Force Historical Research Agency" for more info. They said it was in England in the 8th AF from March 1945 - July 1945! Does anybody know how to find out which unit is was in? Or what it did while it was there?

I want to write a report for school on the plane and it being in England and then coming back is really cool!

I googled 8th Air Force and there is 21 different fighter groups and I don't know where to start.

Any help would be great!!

Thanks!

Evan

[51fixer]

Hi guys!
My good friend Eddie Andreini bought Bob Loves P-51 and I wrote the "United States Air Force Historical Research Agency" for more info. They said it was in England in the 8th AF from March 1945 - July 1945! Does anybody know how to find out which unit is was in? Or what it did while it was there?

I want to write a report for school on the plane and it being in England and then coming back is really cool!

I googled 8th Air Force and there is 21 different fighter groups and I don't know where to start.

Any help would be great!!

Thanks!

Evan

Evan,
Great to see your interest in this history.
I take care of a P-51 44-73029 which is known as Bald Eagle. Pretty close, just 50 away.
I have been told that BE went overseas to Europe but was in a pool of spare aircraft for the 4th FG. Whether it was assigned to a squadron or saw action I don't know.
BE ended up serving with the Ohio ANG before being supplied to Nicaragua.
It is possible they both shared the ramp at NAA and maybe went overseas close together.
Keep us informed what you find out.

[mlenoch]

Moonbeam (44-73656) has similar history. I am not certain one can say it was in the pool for the 4th FG or any other FG while at the depot in England. But who knows?
Also, where was the depot in England? Weren't there several depots?
Thx,
VL

[Holedigger]

The Mustangs on either side, according to Baugher's Serial site, went to the Italian AF, the Swiss AF, the S African AF, and looks like some Air Guard units, with some going to Korea. If one can trace the 1951 accident report in Penn, more data may be acquired.

[gunnyperdue]

According to the records I have for the 4FG aircraft (Escort to Berlin- Ethell).... the nearest serials are 44-73021 VF-F next was 44-73043 VF-? both assigned April 45, 44-73061 VF-X Blood and Guts (belly landed 4/45), 44-73097 WD-? 4/17/45 to EOW.

No 29 or 79... sorry.

The absolutely best way to research the history is to go to Maxwell AFB and do it yourself.... if you like primary sources that is where they are.

gunny

[mlenoch]

Unfortunately, the Maxwell data has no details regarding disposition in Europe.
Once returned to stateside, the aircraft squadron assignments are very detailed.
VL

[gunnyperdue]

"Unfortunately, the Maxwell data has no details regarding disposition in Europe.
Once returned to stateside, the aircraft squadron assignments are very detailed.
VL"

Vlado-

The funny thing about primary source documents is that they are not organized... especially the way you think they should be. I did my master's work in history and found that out. The USAAF/USAF did not collect data in ways that would be an easy answer for us today. You have to look behind the scenes and in different reports (like MACRS, or CR's, Field Order's, Unit History's (all to often only the SQ codes), or even maintenance reports). The hassle is you have to filter through a lot of stuff for the clues you are looking for. How do you think Fry and Ethell put together such a detailed list of 4FG aircraft.... by simple, pain in the ass, hard work. There is no one document or report that would satisfy the question of where that tail number went.... you gotta dig.

gunny

[mlenoch]

Thanks, Gunny.
Now if an aircraft was never assigned, what & where can the info be obtained?
The airframe is only known to have sat at an English depot for 3 - 4 months. This is the period that has unknown information.
Thx again,
VL

[gunnyperdue]

"Thanks, Gunny.
Now if an aircraft was never assigned, what & where can the info be obtained?
The airframe is only known to have sat at an English depot for 3 - 4 months. This is the period that has unknown information.
Thx again,
VL"

Vlado-

That is a long time to sit in depot... I would hazard a guess that your airplane was also a 4/45 delivery to the UK... the Luftwaffe had virtually stopped flying by the middle of the month and the need for replacement airplanes was drastically reduced. I would imagine that the end of the war craziness really affected record keeping... do you know what depot, where did it go the next time you have data... I would think about planning a search at the base/ maintenance unit level... it might not have gone to a Fighter Squadron at all (recall the number of Mustangs that were sent to Sweden and then on to Israel) and stayed assigned at the base level until disposition. Tedious work and you may never find the answer.

For instance we are restoring a C-47 that was in the 95 TCS, it was a spare for the D-Day drop, but was on the FO for Memphis (the resupply), found the crew assignment for Op Dragoon/Varsity.... found that stuff in the unit orders for the parking plan, among others. It's going to come out of the paint shop on Monday and I think we did a good job of duplicating OD 41 with a near correct gritty finish.

Part of the fun... no?

gunny

[mlenoch]

"... do you know what depot, where did it go the next time you have data... I would think about planning a search at the base/ maintenance unit level... it might not have gone to a Fighter Squadron at all (recall the number of Mustangs that were sent to Sweden and then on to Israel) and stayed assigned at the base level until disposition. "

Gunny, therein lies the problem. The specific English depot is not recorded. The data trail picks up after their return stateside at a known base and unit. I suspect these late model -25 and -30 airframes indeed were never ETO assigned, and simply shipped back stateside directly to whichever stateside unit needed/requested the airframes. Unless one can obtain depot records - from all the depots, or at least those receiving new Mustangs - we may never know where they sat in England.
Thx again,
VL

[evanflys]

Thanks so much guys! It's interesting that Moonbeam and this plane sound like they did the same thing - sit in England and then came home.

A great guy at Maxwell AFB gave me the info about 44-73079 after the war so I know which ANG groups it went to, but it's those months in England I'm really curious about!

I also have the crash report which is fun/hard to read!

I dug through this site http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/ and couldn't find the number. I think maybe the plane never got assigned and just sat there until it went back to the US

I wish I could go to Maxwell and dig through the records.

Thanks again everybody!

Evan

[CraigQ]

IAC's (Individual Aircraft Cards) should be available from Maxwell. The card will show the aircrafts movement from the time it left the factory onward. It will not show the specific group or squadron but will give the Station number (base) it was assigned to and the date.
Years ago I obtained one from there on 44-13410 the original LOU IV flown by Col. Christian, 361st CO and it has it's movement recorded from factory to it's being struck after it's loss.

[evanflys]

Thanks again for all the help guys. I asked for an IAC card but haven't gotten one yet

Here are some pics of the plane now. (my dad took these)









Mike Barrows did the engine and Dave Teeters is building the plane

There are more pictures here http://evanflys.com/44-73079

Evan

[evanflys]

I have more pictures of the plane here starting about half way down http://evanflys.com/44-73079

And this new video http://www.vimeo.com/22823162

my dad took the new photos and the video - I had to stay home to do school work!!!

Evan

[Dave Smith]

Hi Evan

There is a very good chance that your P-51 spent much of its time in England parked out on the field at Liverpool's Speke Airport. Most of the 8th AF's P-51s were shipped into Liverpool as deck cargo and then trucked the seven miles out to the airport. They were then stripped of protective sealant, checked over and test flown. The work was done by the Lockheed Aircraft Overseas Corporation and they were then ferried to Base Air Depot No 2 at Warton, about 30 miles away. BAD 2 handled almost all P-51s before they were allocated to fighter groups. Some may have gone to BAD No 1 at Burtonwood which was about 15 miles from Speke, although Burtonwood tended to specialize in the P-47s which also arrived via Speke.

In late May 45, 4th FG were ferrying their aircraft with the lowest flying hours to Speke for shipping back to the States. The new aircraft in storage at Warton were also being flown to Speke. I have seen an aerial photo taken around that time showing nearly 200 P-51s parked at Speke.

So, I reckon that 44-73079 was ferried to Warton in March 45 and not long afterwards back to Speke for shipping Stateside through Liverpool Docks. Warton was packed with parked aircraft so they were probably glad to get rid of some of them to Speke, where there was more spare room. You can never be absolutely sure of these things but I think that's a pretty good bet!

Best wishes

Dave