Biggest Contributor to Our Current Warbird Population?

[daveymac82c]

I believe the RCAF is one of the single biggest contributing factors to the survival of many WWII types.

When I look at some aircraft types I honestly think that without their knowing, the Canadian Government and it's military significantly helped in using some WWII aircraft for long enough after the war, that people began to appreciate them again. Obviously not all the warbird survivors are thanks to Canada, but quite a few are.

Let's take a look at a few. And feel free to add more types and suggest other reasons for survivors.

1.) P-51: Many diverted from USAF to RCAF after end of WWII and served into the 50's(?), then sold surplus to civilian collectors

2.) B-17: Used as transports and waterbombers post-WWII (in USA and France?), then sold to civilian collectors

3.) Spitfire: I don't really know the story of how so many survived, as I don't believe they were used as extensively as P-51's post-WWII. Perhaps they survived only due to their rock star status gained during WWII? Was the South African Airforce responsible for operating a few into the 60's, 70's?

4.) P-40: RCAF auctioned many post WWII (big 'Thank you' to Fred Dyson for his mass-purchase)

5.) Harvard/Texan: RCAF use as trainer into 60's(?), and ANG as well? Later sold surplus to civilian collectors

6.) Lancaster: Post-WWII was extensively used by RCAF in maritime patrol and northern surveillance

7.) P-38's: Use Post-WWII for surveying in Northern Canada with Spartan Airways. Does anyone know how many?

8.) Mosquitos: Used Post-WWII for surveying in Northern Canada with Spartan Airways.

9.) PBY-5A Canso/Catalina: Used Post-WWII as maritime search and rescue by RCAF, then to waterbomber use (some still operating in Canada), then to civilian collectors.

10.) Tiger Moth: Became the main flying club aircraft of choice post WWII in Canada, England, Australia, and others? Also used for crop spraying, then sold to collectors

11.) Stearman: Used as crop sprayers and then sold to civilian collectors

12.) B-25: Used extensively by RCAF post WWII for training and general transport. Later sold surplus to civilian collectors.

That's all I can think of right now. What do all of you think? I'd say the RCAF's use of many of them Post-WWII really did help keep many of these airplanes alive during a time when many people wanted to get rid of anything that reminded them of the war.

I just remembered another:

HE-111: Used by Spanish Air Force Post-WWII allowing for a very decent group of flyers for the BoB movie, and a relatively healthy population for an axis bomber.

Peace,

David M

[Jollygreenslugg]

You have some very good points there David. The number of ex-RCAF Mustangs, Kittyhawks, Mitchells, and Catalinas to survive long enough surely must be substantial.

Thanks Canada! Mind you, I'm biased, coming from another part of the Commonwealth.

Cheers,
Matt

[k5083]

There are more types that the RCAF (and RCN) has been crucial in preserving.

(1) Blenheim/Bolingbroke. Almost all of the preserved "Blenheims," including the RAF Museum's, Pima's, and the one that keeps being crashed and rebuilt in the UK, are really Canadian-built ex-RCAF Bolingbrokes. George Maude bought a bunch of these postwar and supplied the one to Hendon, among others.

(2) Swordfish. Eccentric Canadian collector Ernie Simmons had a bunch of ex-RCN Swordfish on his farm that, when auctioned after his death, contributed about half of the surviving Swordfish today. These include two of the three currently airworthy (or almost airworthy) ones: one of the Royal Navy Historic flight's two 'fish and the Vintage Wings one, as well as the CAF's static one.

(3) Hurricane. At one time, all of the airworthy Hurricanes other than the BBMF's two examples were Canadian-built, and most were ex-RCAF. Shuttleworth's Sea Hurricane was Canadian-built but went directly to Britain. The HAC (ex-TFC), Friedkin, Yagen, Lone Star, Paul Allen, Russell, and one of Vintage Wings' (the one not yet flying) are ex-RCAF Mk.XIIs. Two Hurricane warbirds that have been wrecked, CWH's and Tom Blair's, also were ex-RCAF, as is the static Hurricane displayed at NMUSAF. There probably are others I'm forgetting; basically, even today, British-built airworthy Hurris are the exception rather than the rule.

(4) Yale. Pretty much an exclusively RCAF type, all of the survivors (again thanks to Simmons) served in Canada, and some (e.g. NMUSAF) have been converted to resemble other fixed-gear T-6 ancestors.

(5) Lysander. The vast majority of survivors -- in fact, I think all except Hendon's -- are Canadian-built ex-RCAF, including the ones at IWM Duxford, Weeks, India, Brussels (former OO-SOT), NASM, etc. All seven Lysanders that have flown during the warbird era were Canadian.

(6) Fleet 16. The Finch was an important Canadian trainer and many found their way to the US after the war. A lot of civilian painted Fleets in the US are ex-RCAF Finches, and quite a few have been returned to RCAF yellow.

(7) Cessna Crane. I don't have stats on this, but I suspect that many of the Cranes and T-50s flying in the States have RCAF histories.

The RCAF also made important contributions to the surviving Mustang, B-25, PBY, Harvard, Chipmunk and Anson populations. At one time, almost all of the surviving P-40s were ex-RCAF Kittyhawks; that has been changing thanks to Pacific and Russian recoveries, but they're still a majority. Even the "P-40s" in important American collections such as the NASM and NMUSAF are really ex-RCAF Kittyhawks that never served with the US military.

Canada contributed some surviving Twin Beeches, C-47s, TBMs, Tiger Moths and Stearmans, but not a big percentage of the surviving populations. There are a few Canadian Mosquitos left, but most are British.

Canada cannot take much credit for surviving Spitfires. Only a handful of Spits were ever actually owned by Canada, and the majority of them (3) are preserved by CASM. The Spits flown by RCAF units were borrowed from the RAF. On the other hand, the RCN did own Seafires of which we now have one (finally!) flying and one preserved static. Canada also made no meaningful contribution to surviving B-17s or P-38s.

August

[daveymac82c]

I forgot about the Lysander, Bolingbroke, Yale, and Swordfish. Now, was it the fact that these airplanes were kept in RCAF service until much later after WWII, or were they mothballed, or was it the RCAF's way of auctioning airframes that allowed people to save them unlike the the chopping yards found in other parts of the world post-WWII?

Oh, and I just remembered another. There's the Supermarine Stranraer, which the only two survivors are ex-RCAF and were both used for passenger operation in British Columbia after WWII.

And of course, the Ansons.... those things made up the bulk of the RCAF really during WWII, and after the war the vast major of those airframes were sold to farmers for them to pick parts from. That allowed them to survive long enough for them to become more valuable than scrap.

I figured that Canada had nothing to do with the survival of the Spitfire. I'd be interested to find out what allowed the Spits to survive in such large numbers.

Peace,

David M

[rcaf_100]

I forgot about the Lysander, Bolingbroke, Yale, and Swordfish. Now, was it the fact that these airplanes were kept in RCAF service until much later after WWII, or were they mothballed, or was it the RCAF's way of auctioning airframes that allowed people to save them unlike the the chopping yards found in other parts of the world post-WWII?

Since the Lizzie, Bolly and Yale were off the RCAF inventory by 1946 and the Stringbags were retired by the RCN by 1948 I would say that the latter part of your question is correct.

I'm sure we all owe a great deal of thanks to Ernie Simmons because without his collection there would only be maybe 3-4 surviving Yales, possibly half as many Swordfish, and the NASM wouldn't have its Lysander hanging from the ceiling.
Now if only Cam Logan had kept all of his aircraft.....oh well.

Last edited by rcaf_100 on Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

[Second Air Force]

I forgot about the Lysander, Bolingbroke, Yale, and Swordfish. Now, was it the fact that these airplanes were kept in RCAF service until much later after WWII, or were they mothballed, or was it the RCAF's way of auctioning airframes that allowed people to save them unlike the the chopping yards found in other parts of the world post-WWII?

And of course, the Ansons.... those things made up the bulk of the RCAF really during WWII, and after the war the vast major of those airframes were sold to farmers for them to pick parts from. That allowed them to survive long enough for them to become more valuable than scrap.

David M

I'm totally unfamiliar with the methods used by the Canadian government to dispose of their excess aircraft post-war, but the auctions/sales to farmers saved a LOT of airframes, up to and including Lancasters. Being a farm kid myself, I remember my dad NEVER wasted anything, so the survival of these airplanes and parts owes much to the practicality of the locals. It makes you wonder what still rests in groves of trees...... I remember reading of a farmer using a P-40 wing section as a road drag to smooth his driveway!

Good topic!
Scott

[mustangdriver]

I think that 3 people or groups that need to be mentioned here are

1) The CAF. I have always said that they are the ones that really started the warbird movement, and have remained a very large key player.

2) David Tallichet. I know he wasn't always fun to deal with, although he wasn't always a bad guy either. Like him or not he saved a ton of warbirds, plus he went on those excursions hunting them down and recovering them from Pacific Islands and such.

3)The Collings Foundation. They were one of the earlier operators of a warbird fleet, and have since expanded their collection. They were among the first to put accurate markings on their fleet as well. They have even gone as far as getting Vietnam aircraft in the air. If the government would get out of the way a bit, they would have even more aircraft in the air.

I believe the RCAF is one of the single biggest contributing factors to the survival of many WWII types.
David M

David - GREAT thread and I believe you are correct that a very large number of vintage warbird aircraft originated with the RCAF. Two very important POST-WWII vintage jet types today have many of their origins in Canada. A lot, if not most of the vintage T-33's and F-86's today came from Canada. These are two of my favorite warbird types.

[davem]

I guess there are two ways of looking at the question, certainly the RCAF operated types such as the Lancaster and Canso / Catalina longer than many, not unlike Honduras, Nicaragua, etc extended the service life of the T-28's. The key I believe was the method of disposal. With most surplus aircraft types, Canada disposed of aircraft one at a time - this allowed individuals to purchase easially and avoided mass disposal / scrapping of types. Certainly the Harvard and Chipmunk populations survived largely intact due to this style of disposal. This has now extended into the T-33's in recent years.

However, I prefer to look at those who contributed to the preservation of aircraft long before it was popular or profitable. Ed Maloney and Bob Sturgess were doing it in early in the US, Harry Whereatt and Wes Agnew saved countless dozens of aircraft in the 50's and 60's in Canada. I'm guessing each country has at least one or two people who were hoarding warbirds before they became the 'cool' thing to have. These are the individuals that I respect and admire, they did it out of respect and pure love of warbirds, not for financial gain or ego building. In my mind these are the individuals (and families) that contributed in the biggest way to the warbird movement.

[PinecastleAAF]

I vote for North American Aviation.

I've always thought Ed Maloney really deserved a lot of credit. I remember an editor comment in Air Classics warbird report that was critical of him for storing aircraft outside before his place was called Planes of Fame. Movieland of the Air maybe?


My how times have changed.

[daveymac82c]

I guess one of my main points with this thread was to point out the "unintentional" help that the RCAF gave in preserving so many warbirds.

At the time I'm sure the RCAF didn't care what happened to their antiquated airplanes, but as long as they got rid of them. Little did they know, their choice in aircraft disposal technique allowed people passionate about WWII era airplanes to get a chance to save them.

There are many names mentioned in this thread and I think we should be raising our glasses in their honor more often.

Even though it doesn't make much sense, I am very proud of these men for going out of their way to save a significant part of history that would certainly be gone without them. Most didn't do it for money, they did it because they believed in what they were doing. Cheers.

Peace,

David McIntosh

[daveymac82c]

I vote for North American Aviation.

I think I get what you're saying.... I think.

Are you saying that there wouldn't be any B-25's, P-51's, or Yales, or Harvard/Texans at all if North American Aviation never existed.

Peace,

David M

[PinecastleAAF]

I think I get what you're saying.... I think.

Are you saying that there wouldn't be any B-25's, P-51's, or Yales, or Harvard/Texans at all if North American Aviation never existed.

Yes sir! I agree with everything you said David. Kudo's to the RCAF and many Canadian farmers not to mention Ernie Simmons. I know only warbird guys would go see if but I always thought the Simmons saga would make a great movie......or at least documentary. Maybe a documentary on the early warbird movement would be cool, it could cover all the legends like Simmons, Soplata, Maloney, Reinert, Hardwick, etc. etc. etc. Sorry to get off subject with NAA.

Carry on.

[J-F St-Pierre]

TrangleP wrote

I just learned recently that the RCAF was the 4th largest air force in the world by end of WWII

In the same idea, the Royal Canadian Navy was the 3rd largest navy after the US Navy and the Royal Navy at the end of WWII.


TirangleP wrote

any country that built Mosquitos must be doing something right!

I add some to your "built list": Lysander, Hurricane, PBY, Harvard, Tiger Moth, Lancaster, Bristol Blenheim (Bolingbroke), Handley Page Hampten, Curtis Helldiver and probably some others that I forget.


Davemac82c wrote

I figured that Canada had nothing to do with the survival of the Spitfire

Spitfire were in small number in Canada mainly for evaluation. Hurricane and P-40 were used in Canada for home defence.

[k5083]

With respect to RCAF disposal policies, I seem to recall reading, probably in one of Milberry's books, that while fighters and trainers were disposed of pretty freely after the war, there was a restriction on selling surplus bombers because of the damage they could do in the wrong hands. The Anson qualified as a bomber, which is why so few Ansons were preserved despite having been easily the most numerous RCAF aircraft ever.

August