English Channel German Engine Cores?

[Shay]

In an effort at driving down the German engine core costs and possibly increasing the supply. What are the thoughts about recovering engines from the bottom of the channel? Obviously as in the Do-17 recovery's case an intact airframe is worth more than just an engine. But in the cases where the aircraft entered the water at too high a rate of speed to survive or if damaged from subsequent fishing efforts. With the engines being more robust it's possible several examples could be recovered for refurbishing and used in future restorations. If nothing else maybe enough major assemblies and pieces could be collected.

Thoughts ? Also has mapping of the channel been carried out with the intent of locating wreck sites such as has been done in Lake Michigan?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

from Warbirdfinders website, but you get the point

[DoraNineFan]

The following article details the preservation of a BMW 801 engine recovered from the Le Loiret river (freshwater?), which not only described cleaning the parts, but the chemical stabilization involved in reversing the corrosion (and preventing acceleration of the corrosion when it is exposed to the open air.)
http://202.14.152.30/collections/mariti ... ewulf.html

I would think that 60+ years of saltwater immersion would present challenges for anything beyond ground running because of the chemical reactions affecting the various metals, unless recovered from low-oxygen waters. But I'm also open to be proven wrong.

[PbyCat-Guy]

Maybe the engines can be used as molds to make replicas? I think it would be interesting to see what can be found of all the 8th AAF airplanes that had to ditch in the North Sea. That is come cold deep waters.

[warbird1]

I've been told that ANY of the German engines can be made or remanufactured. With modern day computers and software, virtually anything can be made, but the problem is cost. Somewhere I read that the cost to make a scratch built DB 600 series engine was technically possible, but would cost 2 to 3 Million dollars to produce. So, my guess is, we will have to wait a few years until the technology and production methods become more economical. At that point, we will probably see replica Axis engines start to be produced, IMO.

I don't know if salvaging engine cores from the English Channel is a solution or not. Remember it is still salt water, and I'm not aware of any W.W. II aircraft engine cores that have been put on flying warbirds that came solely from a salt water environment. Sure, there might be a few parts here and there, but if I recall correctly, isn't the biggest, hardest to reproduce engine part of the Daimler-Benz and Jumo engines, made out of magnesium? Salt water and magnesium don't mix too well. I seem to recall that the Germans had an affiniity for magnesium engine parts.

Can anyone give further detail on this?

[JBoyle]

Judging by the American radials I've seen in the UK that were pulled out of the Channel and North Sea years ago, I'm not sure there would be much left.

[DoraNineFan]

I don't know if salvaging engine cores from the English Channel is a solution or not. Remember it is still salt water, and I'm not aware of any W.W. II aircraft engine cores that have been put on flying warbirds that came solely from a salt water environment. Sure, there might be a few parts here and there, but if I recall correctly, isn't the biggest, hardest to reproduce engine part of the Daimler-Benz and Jumo engines, made out of magnesium? Salt water and magnesium don't mix too well. I seem to recall that the Germans had an affiniity for magnesium engine parts.

Can anyone give further detail on this?

I think the major magnesium components are the valve covers, reduction gear cover, supercharger, the cover for the crank journals and some other accessories. Someone has already produced new Jumo 213 supercharger castings for a restoration, and I believe a new DB601 reduction gear cover was produced. So other new parts may follow for new restorations.

Here are photos of a Jumo 213 that was part of the group of engines dug up at the Frankfurt Airport. You can see the magnesium parts oxidizing into powder. I suspect that a saltwater environment would be even more hostile to these parts.

[warbird1]

Wow, thanks for the info and pictures DoraNineFan!

Do you have any more info and/or pictures from that infamous dig? It seems like it was big news then it kind of went off the radar. How many did they recover, where did they all go? Are any going to be used in any flying restorations, etc? Lots of questions on that! Feel free to start another thread, if you don't want this one to derail. Thanks!

[The Inspector]

Magnesium doesn't last long even in fresh water, the SBD pulled out of Lake Michigans wheels were gone which is why the tires fell off and back into the Lake. When the MoF recovered the FG-1 out of Lake Washington (deep, cold, snow runoff fed) many years ago, the instrument panel and wheels and other mag parts were disolved away.
Personally, I wouldn't trust any engine that has been in water, especially salt water it does 'things' to aluminum too.

[marine air]

Hers an idea;

1A) Scrap the idea of pulling engines out of salt water and making airworthy after 65 years.
1b) Jack Roush was going to put Merlins back into production but Rolls Royce wouldn't sell him the rights, so;

WHy not approach Mr. Roush about manufacturing the Daimler Benz V-12. This would help out the Bf-109,s ,He-111's , KI-61 Tony's,and a lot more. It could be fitted to Yaks, Migs, Macchi's, Fiats, and also pretty much anything that has a ROlls Royce. RR would crap if their heritage engines started getting replaced with new engines from elsewhere!

[jet1]

visit this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamburgh_Castle

http://www.bamburghcastle.com/visitors.php

they have an aviation artifacts museum of stuff pulled up from the north sea. I doubt there is much airworthy at this point.

[DoraNineFan]

Wow, thanks for the info and pictures DoraNineFan!

Do you have any more info and/or pictures from that infamous dig? It seems like it was big news then it kind of went off the radar. How many did they recover, where did they all go? Are any going to be used in any flying restorations, etc? Lots of questions on that! Feel free to start another thread, if you don't want this one to derail. Thanks!

I cannot seem to find the old info on the engine types dug up, though I believe the total was just over ten (11? or 13?) and a mixture of DB, BMW, and Jumos. Obviously one has made its way into a restoration, which is great news.

The Jumo 213 in the pictures is to be part of a future airworthy restoration (at least at this present time.)

1b) Jack Roush was going to put Merlins back into production but Rolls Royce wouldn't sell him the rights, so;

That seems very old-fashioned of Roll Royce. If it's an issue over liability, I would think a waiver would be acceptable to interested buyers.

[warbird1]

The Jumo 213 in the pictures is to be part of a future airworthy restoration (at least at this present time.)

Are you at liberty to give any more info on this - who, where, what, etc.? If not, I understand.