The Great Ball Turret swap

[mustangdriver]

Here are pics of the crew at Dover AFB swapping out the Ball turrests of their B-17. The one they got was a spare at the NMUSAF, but very complete, and the one that the NMUSAF got is the correct one for the B-24 Strawberry Bitch. These pics are not mine, they are the Air Mobility Command Museum's

[John Dupre]

Which B-17 is at Dover AFB? Years ago they restored Shoo Shoo Baby of course.
From the photos the turretts look identical. What are the differences?

[mustangdriver]

The B-17 at the Air Mobility Command Museum is the one that was on display at the NMUSAF for like 25 years. It had no combat history, but I think it was the last B-17 to operate in the USAF or something like that. It was painted in the markings that were used in 12'oclock high. At least that is what it looked like. When Shoo Shoo baby became available, the NMUSAF wanted it as it was a war veteran. Dover agreed to restore it in trade for a B-17 of their own. They were given the one from the NMUSAF in trade for the completed Shoo Shoo baby. Dover then went over and restored their B-17 and painted in the markings of "Sleepy Time Gal" When the museum first got their first B-17, it did not have a ball turret. The B-24 did, and this being the 50's, no one cared a ton about B-24's as they did abput the B-17. So the museum switched it so that the B-17 was complete. When they shipped it off to Dover no one tought about the ball turret. As years went by and directors at the museum changed, more and more attention was placed to getting each aircraft to the most complete they could. Once it was discovered that the ball turret of Strawberry Bitch was there, they offered a trade. It was switched, and now everyone wins.

[mustangdriver]

The turret experts here can tell you more. I always thought that the ball was the same but the structure that supports them were different as the B-24 turret has a support that is able to be extended and retracted into the aircraft. There is a scissor that can be seen on the support of the B-24.

[Pat Carry]

Here are pics of the crew at Dover AFB swapping out the Ball turrests of their B-17. The one they got was a spare at the NMUSAF, but very complete, and the one that the NMUSAF got is the correct one for the B-24 Strawberry Bitch. These pics are not mine, they are the Air Mobility Command Museum's

A win win situation! Thanks for the photos Chris.

[Pat Carry]

Just to expound on what Chris said, the one now at Dover is www.warbirdregistry.org/b17registry/b17-4483624.html

[JimH]

It's really no big deal now but that was the first B-17 I laid eyes on. That was 1974 or 75...it's funny cause to this day I remember wondering what did it sound like. Strawberry Bitch, the P-40, the B-25, they all seemed like big model airplanes to me with absolutely no animation. It's places like the USAFM and Dover that makes it vital that we keep these machines running...and more importantly I don't want to go deaf flying these things for nothing.

jim

[Holedigger]

She looks pretty good considering she has been sitting outside for so long.

[TimAPNY]

So how do you get a ball turret in / out of a B-17 (or a B-24)? I assume you have to jack the airframe and host it in?

I guess I never really thought about it before and would love to know the process now that I've thought about it.

Tim

[TimAPNY]

It's really no big deal now but that was the first B-17 I laid eyes on. That was 1974 or 75...it's funny cause to this day I remember wondering what did it sound like. Strawberry Bitch, the P-40, the B-25, they all seemed like big model airplanes to me with absolutely no animation. It's places like the USAFM and Dover that makes it vital that we keep these machines running...and more importantly I don't want to go deaf flying these things for nothing.

jim

I feel lucky to have seen both a B-17 and B-24 for the first time either about to fly or flying. Fuddy Duddy at my first airshow in 1986 and Little Joe (Kermit's B-24J) flying over West Point, NY on a very random day.I remember that day like yesterday, I still get goosebumps thinking about it.

Some need to be kept in the air always!

Tim

[Chris Brame]

I don't see a top turret on '624 in the Registry photos - is that the next project?

[RAMC181]

The turret experts here can tell you more. I always thought that the ball was the same but the structure that supports them were different as the B-24 turret has a support that is able to be extended and retracted into the aircraft. There is a scissor that can be seen on the support of the B-24.

I'm certainly no ball turret expert, but I'm trying to learn.
Here's my take on the matter from what I've learned so far, Taigh & Co please correct me where I'm in error.

The turret and it's traverse ring, as seen in the above photos, would appear to be the same sub-assembly for both the B-17 and B-24 installations, only the supporting connection to the aircraft varied (Fixed in the B-17, telescopic in the B-24).
To differenciate between the two installations, each had a seperate AAF identification: A-2 series for the B-17, A-13 series for the B-24.
The ball turret is in essence an upside-down version of the Sperry A-1 upper turret, with the obvious mechanical differences. Similarly, the K-4 gunsight in the ball turret is an upside-down version of the K-3 sight in the upper turret.

I've mentioned the developmental variations before, the turrets in the above photos seem to be what I'd consider as mid/late production: Lower front windows deleted, windows added to the upper outer side sections, circular plate between the "seat" and the front window. Without being able to see the back of the turret, I'd guess these have external ammunition feeds with the corresponding stepped panel, incorporating the oxygen connector.
The barrel aperture differences I've also mentioned before, but exactly how the variations correspond to the A-2A, A-2B, A-2C etc. (and presumably the same for the A-13 series) I'd love to know.
I believe there are manuals available that cover the subject, but sadly the vendors won't supply to the UK for whatever reason.

All the best,
Paul

[Pat Carry]

She looks pretty good considering she has been sitting outside for so long.

Sleepy Time Gal at Dover has been on dislay inside for many years now. I was there in 2001 and she was inside at that time.

[Second Air Force]

So how do you get a ball turret in / out of a B-17 (or a B-24)? I assume you have to jack the airframe and host it in?

I guess I never really thought about it before and would love to know the process now that I've thought about it.

Tim

Tim,

Here's how they removed and installed ball turrets at the Oklahoma City Depot. Just raise the airplane tail up a bit and use this dandy jack.


Scott

[mustangdriver]

As far as I know the B-17 at Dover has been indoors since the completion of her restoration. She just recently had the top turret installed. The People at Dover are all great people. Their C-47 and B-17 are worth the trip alone. Their C-47 is on display in it's original markings it carried on D-Day, then Market Garden, and then the Bulge.

Without getting too far into it, as I always say, we need both static and flying. One isn't better than the other, just different. The static aircraft serve a very vital role as being on display 365 days a year to educate. Collections like the NMUSAF and Dover serve as great places for families, and field trips, aviation nuts, and modelers. Here they can get up close on regular hours and see aircraft, many times actual combat vets.

The flying museums and collections are important as the display how they sounded, smelled, and looked in the air. They offer chances to fly in them like the Collings Foundation, EAA, Yankee Lady, and Liberty Belle. Then you have places like Stallion 51 and Warbird Adventures that give you the chance to step into the shoes of a fighter pilot. There is plenty enough room for all as they each serve the same goal, but take different roads to do it.