NYT article that may be of interest.

[ZRX61]

Not actually *warbird specific*, but the guy knows his stuff... & I just went out & bought his book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magaz ... anted=1&em

[b29flteng]

At the airlines I work at we have "technicians" and "mechanics". Give me a mechanic anytime. The new guys (technicians) can't figure their way out of a paperbag if it had an arrow pointing in the right direction. Maybe I'm just too much of a grumpy old fart.

[ZRX61]

At the airlines I work at we have "technicians" and "mechanics". Give me a mechanic anytime. The new guys (technicians) can't figure their way out of a paperbag if it had an arrow pointing in the right direction. Maybe I'm just too much of a grumpy old fart.

Welcome to the club

[JDK]

Thanks for the pointer.

You might also like to look out The Craftsman by Richard Sennett that I'm reading at the moment. From reviews, go for the Penguin edition rather than the Yale typo laden one, if you can.

[The Inspector]

I've encountered this 'phenomenon' many times in the past few years, particularly with newbies coming to the 787 program. Not just kids (19 on up) but older folks looking to change professions who all seem to be incapable of understanding the very basics of mechanical skills, they don't comprehend 'lefty loosey-righty tighty', they cannot 'turn things over' in their heads for perspective, (try explaining to an uncomprehending person that torquing a 'B' nut on plumbing works backwards when the nut tightens 'up' the fitting not 'normal' down) they cannot do basic deductive troubleshooting and just want to 'throw parts at the problem'. And most unfortunate for younger people, they all seem to think that anything can be texted together rather than assembled piece by piece, they absolutely cannot think beyond the ends of their noses and all believe that mundane repetitive tasks are 'beneath them'.

I place a lot of the blame on what they are indoctrinated with in K-12 public schools by 'teachers' who have zero real world experience and stress 'get that degree' because that is what they were taught to buy into by the previous generation of 'teachers'. Who do folks get their degrees in business from? really old farts with three hairs on their heads, four teeth that don't line up, and who've never had a real world job because they've spent their entire lives in college, reading off of laminated, yellowed notes on how the economic world works.

Maybe thats why car dealerships charge $80+ per hour to do things that were routine tasks like oil changes and minor repairs like belts and hoses, or a flat tire just a few years ago. I also understand that vehicles of all sorts are now so overly complex and computer integrated that you do need a degree from Microsquish to tune up an average car, but the very basics seem to be beyond the new kids' grasp or understanding. Is it just me, or are we entering a period of non functioning drones or has the gene pool gotten that shallow?

[Enemy Ace]

The newspaper article is good but Mr. crawford's book is not worth the effort. After about 5 pages it turns into a philosophy textbook with little or nothing to do with working on things.

And guys, I was an A&P instructor, the problem is not the "Kids", they are in A&P school and on the shop floor because they want to be. It is YOUR JOB to help them become great at what they do. You didn't crawl out of the cradle a mechanical genius either so quit b-itchin and mentor some of them. Sure some are a waste of time but there are plenty begging for your know- how.

[JDK]

And guys, I was an A&P instructor, the problem is not the "Kids", they are in A&P school and on the shop floor because they want to be. It is YOUR JOB to help them become great at what they do. You didn't crawl out of the cradle a mechanical genius either so quit b-itchin and mentor some of them. Sure some are a waste of time but there are plenty begging for your know- how.

Part of the issue IMHO in general is the modern assumption that entry to a course means an automatic pass at the end - rather than having to achieve standards to get the chit on exit. Big debate.

However I'd bet a bar of gold to a plug nickel that the monks were complaining you couldn't get the kids to illuminate a manuscript properly and that the young flint knappers aren't like the flint knappers in grandpaw Ug's day.

[CAPFlyer]

And guys, I was an A&P instructor, the problem is not the "Kids", they are in A&P school and on the shop floor because they want to be. It is YOUR JOB to help them become great at what they do. You didn't crawl out of the cradle a mechanical genius either so quit b-itchin and mentor some of them. Sure some are a waste of time but there are plenty begging for your know- how.

EA, I wish I could agree with you, but I can't - mainly because I'm part of that generation and I know (and work with) these guys. Some of them are, like you say, in the school because they want to be, but too many are there because they think it'll get them paid good money or because someone told them to be there (whether a career counselor or parent). More importantly, they need basic skills before they go to A&P school - basic reasoning and work skills that they're not taught anymore in the schools or by many parents. I got lucky. My grandfather and father taught me to work on things so I am able to do those things. I know too many of my generation who've never seen a wrench much less worked a troubleshooting tree on anything (including their computer). They don't learn anymore, they memorize. People complain here in Texas about the TAKS test. The problem isn't the test - it's that because the education system is so screwed up, the only way to get kids to pass it is to teach the test, which isn't teaching at all and is only required because the teachers aren't or can't teach the curriculum in such a way that they learn the test as they learn the material. And that's why schools continue to fail miserably.

[TonyM]

I place a lot of the blame on what they are indoctrinated with in K-12 public schools by 'teachers' who have zero real world experience and stress 'get that degree' because that is what they were taught to buy into by the previous generation of 'teachers'.

Please. It's the culture, if anything, that is to blame for our stupid young people, not the schools or the teachers. It's the "everybody gets a trophy whether you win or not" part of our culture that is partially to blame. And the technology, too, is helping people become stupid and lazy. And let's not forget to blame the students and parents.

People want to blame the schools all the time. I blame the lazy students and their delusional parents. These largely stupid and unrealistic parents--who are just as dumb as their kids in many cases--are one of the big reasons I decided to write books instead of becoming a teacher (my original goal). Let's blame the teacher because the kids watch TV all evening and rarely crack open a book. Let's blame the teacher because the kids are on the web all night clicking on Hannah Bandana or American Idol. Let's blame the school rather than the poor example of the parents. When I was a kid, if the teacher called home, you got a whippin'. Nowadays, if the teacher calls home, the parents ask: "Why are you picking on my kid?" And finally, let's blame the teacher and the schools because the kid was not taught manners at home. They learn their rudeness, a lot of times, from their parents.

Even in college a lot of the students were lazy, whining dumb sh!ts. While pursuing my BA degree I worked full time 40 hours a week as a garbage man, worked political campaigns and carried Nine Credit hours a week and I still managed to ace my way through and graduate second in my class. Teachers need to pass exams and become certified, on the other hand, any idiot can become a parent.

You only get out of school what you put into it. And if students want to be lazy, and many are, that will be reflected in their overall ability and intelligence.

Inspector, my college degree is working out just fine for me.

Tony Mireles

[ZRX61]

Before the economy went in the crapper I was trying to get the local Community College to offer machine shop.
I canvased a few of the other classes & just about got a 100% interest from the guys taking auto shop, autobody, welding, airframe structures (composites), the A&P guys & most of the guys taking electrical & HVAC courses.
At this point I ran up against the Dean of technology who stated "There is no call for machinsts in the Antelope Valley".. (there are 350+ Haus machines in this town) I did a bit more work & she was eventually faced with letters & comments from Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, Boeing, Scaled Composites, General Atomics, NASA, AFRL, Sensor Systems & the owners of at least 25 machine shops in town who basically told her she was a frigging idiot.

At this point she changed her tune & stated the college couldn't afford to furnish a machine shop.... However, Fresno State has a campus here that does BSc & Phd etc in Electrical & Mechanical Eng.. & has a machine shop furnished by the AirForce (among others) who told me the Community College could use their facilities .. so that shot down her argument.

For my effort I was accused by the Dean of being an instigator, desenter & disruptive influence

In the meantime the college has just pissed away $26M+ on building a new "Theatre/Arts Complex" so LA County can have even more out of work actors/waiters....

[flyboyj]

There has always been a great disdain for vocational trades within our educational system and having attended schools on the east and west coast I seen the same attitudes in both places. Although many vocational trades are offered within many community college systems, when you talk to guidance counselors there is always a negative connotation when discussing trades where one has to work with their hands, at least I have found that in my experience.

As far as the problems with the "new kids" coming into the industry, I see a mixture of piss poor attitudes as well as some who are truly talented and have potential. I don't think you could paint all "new-bees" with a broad brush as being ignorant, lazy or money grubbing. I've work with many an old fart who were basically useless and just collected a paycheck for showing up.

I've been working in aviation since 1978 and could remember some of the "old farts" (almost all WW2 vets) saying the same thing about my generation. I think its a matter of the individual proving themselves and rising above some of the stereotypes some may place on "new-bees."

Last edited by flyboyj on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[TimAPNY]

Wow, so far what I've read from the article is very interesting, I feel like it is talking about the journey I'm on and what I've come to realize about myself. I guess when I get to the head shrinking part I'll stop reading.

I moved from an electronic tech job to a computer programmer locked in a cube. I'm now laying tile floors and while enjoy learning the trade I won't be doing this in a few years. When another door opens I'll be ready to step out and learn something else, if I like it enough I just might make it a career. I swear I'll go postal if I'm ever locked in another cube for 4.5 years! I want to always be learning and experiencing new things, everyone only gets one time around so if you can't find something you love, keep looking.

I completely understand a lot of the statements about my gen and the one coming up. I'm amazed at them myself. I feel in my ways I'm old school and my time in the Navy has given me a different out look on life and jobs.

Tim

[ZRX61]

The newspaper article is good but Mr. crawford's book is not worth the effort. After about 5 pages it turns into a philosophy textbook with little or nothing to do with working on things.

Nothing wrong with a bit of philosophy when you're bent in a shape the human body wasn't meant to experience while fixing something deep in the bowels of some old warbird...

...well, once I get past the "This must be one of those bloody jobs they hired midgets to do" part...

I guess you haven't read Bob Pirsigs book?

[Enemy Ace]

No I haven't read pirsigs book. I went to look it up on amazon and the description was such a turnoff I think I'll punt. Anyone who goes around quoting Nitzche should be given a good kick in the clackers anyway.
And why the he-ll does it always have to be about motosickles anyway? I'm just old enough to remember when Bikers were big bad hairy dudes with rap sheets, not attorneys and dentists out for a thrill. Have you SEEN the price of a Harley nowadays?

[ZRX61]

Have you SEEN the price of a Harley nowadays?

I'm immune to the bleating of HD's marketing dept. I ride this:


& that old fart sat on it isn't me..... That's Gary Nixon, he knows a bit about fast Kaws..

Guess where I gas up?...