Did any Vultee BT-13 Valiants make it to Europe??

Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:23 am

Hi

Can someone tell me if any Vultee BT-13's made it over to England , to be used as hacks by any FG / BG of the 8th AF or 9th AF.

Photo would be nice

Mart

Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:17 am

I've never seen one, but that's hardly conclusive.

AT-6s were there as hacks and proficiency trainers*...I'm not sure why there would be a need for a basic trainer in the UK. As Bowers points out in US Military Aircraft, PT-17s were sent to Italy, but as mosquito sprayers.

*I've just read an account where a B-17 co-pilot transferred to fighters after his bomber tour transitioned to fighters by doing take offs and landings from the back seat of a Texan. This answered a question I've had about whether guys who did that (like Bert Stiles and this pilot) had to return to the US for fighter training.

Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:48 pm

I'd agree with John, I haven't seen or heard of it, which proves nothing, but I can't see a reason for it to happen either.

I recently proofed a news item about one in Europe today (as a warbird) and I'd suspect if the owner had found reference to a wartime European based example it might have been mentioned.

Not much, but I hope it helps!

Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:14 pm

I'm pretty sure I've seen a photo or photos of BT-13s at 8th or 9th Air Force stations in England. I certainly could be wrong and I won't be digging through the piles to find a picture to back it up, but I do believe there were a few there.

If I find a pic I'll be sure to post it,
Scott

Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:41 am

Great if you could find one Scott! Mighty Eighth War Manual makes no mention of them under the support types and I've never read anything of them nor seen a photo. Doesn't mean there weren't any, of course. The RAF never operated any and that is definite. Had they done so, some may have been transferred to the USAAF in Britain.

Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:50 am

Well, I may just be dreaming I've seen them, Dave. It doesn't seem likely that the AAF would use precious deck or hold space for a BT. For some reason I was thinking that Russell Zorn had caught a BT-13 in one of his photos. I may have to do some digging to put my idea to bed, one way or the other. I certainly don't want to send everyone on a wild goose chase over my "memory".

Scott

Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:11 am

Don't worry about wild goose chases, Scott, it would be nice to nail this one (or not as the case may be!) Could it have been a Navy SNV perhaps? The USN Fleet Air Wing 7 at Dunkeswell had at least one N3N in 1945 for reasons unknown so maybe they got an SNV as well.

Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:17 am

Dave Smith wrote:Don't worry about wild goose chases, Scott, it would be nice to nail this one (or not as the case may be!) Could it have been a Navy SNV perhaps? The USN Fleet Air Wing 7 at Dunkeswell had at least one N3N in 1945 for reasons unknown so maybe they got an SNV as well.

You got a picture???

Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:20 am

I started digging through Baugher's #'s site to see if it listed any as going over there.....I'll have to pic up that search when I have more time....it is tedious! So far I have seen them sent to Brazil, Mexico, India and Dominican Republic....no England yet!

Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:41 am

Dave Smith wrote:Don't worry about wild goose chases, Scott, it would be nice to nail this one (or not as the case may be!) Could it have been a Navy SNV perhaps? The USN Fleet Air Wing 7 at Dunkeswell had at least one N3N in 1945 for reasons unknown so maybe they got an SNV as well.

What I seem to remember was a photo of a line of B-17s with the front 1/3rd of what certainly looked like a BT-13/SNV in the background. I don't remember markings or anything else, just the fact that I thought it was unusual. I hadn't even thought about this for several years, so I may be totally off-base. I recall that it didn't have gear doors so I'm pretty sure I didn't mistake a T-6 for a Vibrator. However.......did any fixed-gear North American trainers end up in England? I suppose it would be possible that what I saw was a BT-14 or Yale with no wheel pants. Just a thought.

Scott

Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:47 am

Don't think I ever saw a photo, Jeff, but I'll try to find the reference to it. It was in Aeroplane Spotter in 1945, a British weekly publication on newsprint. Once worked with two guys (British) who learned on N3Ns and SNJs at Pensacola under the Arnold Plan training scheme. No photos, 'cos I asked!

Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:46 pm

N3N-3 Bu No 1987 had an accident at Dunkeswell, Devon, England on May 26, 1945. This is from the AAIR database of accident reports. Apologies for thread drift but this is interesting stuff.

Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:10 pm

Getting back on track with this thread, I have checked further in the book Air Arsenal North America, published in 2004. It was written by a friend of mine, Phil Butler, and is a near-definitive history of Lend-Lease aircraft. I read that 28 BT-13Bs were delivered to the French AF in N Africa in June 1944. They were ex 42-90547 to 42-90574 and were used at French training schools in Morocco and Algeria. A photo shows one in mostly natural metal with star and bar on the fuselage, USAAF serial on the tail and a French blue/white/red flash on the rudder (similar to an RAF fin flash with the colors reversed.)

After France fell in 1940, the remaining 119 Yales of a large French AF order were diverted to Canada. None seems to have come to the UK.