Me-109 Modification
Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:58 am
Another wacky idea:
Due to the scarcity of DB-601's, anyone thought of mounting an Allison engine inverted on a 109 airframe? Curious to see if it would work.
Due to the scarcity of DB-601's, anyone thought of mounting an Allison engine inverted on a 109 airframe? Curious to see if it would work.
Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:18 pm
It´s been discussed on here before. IIRC the concensus was "would you want to fly behind it/invest money in making it work?"
Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:29 pm
It´s been discussed on here before. IIRC the concensus was "would you want to fly behind it/invest money in making it work?"
What would cost all the money? Fuel injection system? Updraft carb?
Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:27 pm
Just off the top of my head, wouldn't the oiling/fuel delivery system need to be completely redesigned. Being that it would be inverted 90% of the time?
Greg
Greg
Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:59 pm
Does anyone have any DB-601 prints? Heads, case, rods?
Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:17 pm
Here is an online auction for a 1944 built, bf109, alas, it ONLY has a Merlin in it!! No DB-601, but it IS a good start! My German is not so good, so I'm not with all the particulars!
http://alt.aero-auction.com/messerschmi ... t_0001.php
http://alt.aero-auction.com/messerschmi ... t_0001.php
Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:57 pm
With the recent discussion regarding CAD-CAM design and manufacture (*see link below), are we reaching a point where fabricating new DB601 engine components might be an increasingly realistic endeavor?
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32432
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32432
Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:30 pm
Rob: Two big problems with replicating the DB's, or for that matter, any large displacement aircraft engine.
First is finding someone that not only has the capability to cast the block cores and machine them, but finding someone that will undertake the project. Once you say "aircraft" the liability crawfishing starts...
The other is finding someone that has the proper size equipment to replicate the cams and cranks. Billet cranks are no problem for the horsepower, but finding someone that has a crank grinder that will handle a 5-6' blank.
Actually the smallest problem is just the couple of buckets of bucks that would get it all going.
First is finding someone that not only has the capability to cast the block cores and machine them, but finding someone that will undertake the project. Once you say "aircraft" the liability crawfishing starts...
The other is finding someone that has the proper size equipment to replicate the cams and cranks. Billet cranks are no problem for the horsepower, but finding someone that has a crank grinder that will handle a 5-6' blank.
Actually the smallest problem is just the couple of buckets of bucks that would get it all going.
Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:20 pm
Cvairwerks wrote:Billet cranks are no problem for the horsepower, but finding someone that has a crank grinder that will handle a 5-6' blank.
Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Perkins etc...
Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:29 pm
I think that DB licensed Volvo to build the DB601 or a later type.
Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:43 pm
A2C wrote:It´s been discussed on here before. IIRC the concensus was "would you want to fly behind it/invest money in making it work?"
What would cost all the money? Fuel injection system? Updraft carb?
All of the above, plus cooling and oiling systems. It can get very expensive and isn't as simple as flipping the thing upside down. (Over 5 or 10 seconds inverted in P-51 will kill the Merlin from oil starvation, according to the WWII pilots' manual.) This is probably why FlugWerk did not attempt to invert the Allison in their Fw190D-9 replica.
Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:10 pm
Holedigger wrote:Here is an online auction for a 1944 built, bf109, alas, it ONLY has a Merlin in it!! No DB-601, but it IS a good start! My German is not so good, so I'm not with all the particulars!
http://alt.aero-auction.com/messerschmi ... t_0001.php
Whaddya know!-another 'German built' Buchon, amazing how many are around
Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:26 pm
DaveM2 wrote:Whaddya know!-another 'German built' Buchon, amazing how many are around
My thought also!
But good to keep them in circulation, rather than sitting hangars snarling at passing pilots.
Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:27 pm
All of the above, plus cooling and oiling systems. It can get very expensive and isn't as simple as flipping the thing upside down. (Over 5 or 10 seconds inverted in P-51 will kill the Merlin from oil starvation, according to the WWII pilots' manual.) This is probably why FlugWerk did not attempt to invert the Allison in their Fw190D-9 replica.
What about the carb.? Downdraft?
?Does anyone have any DB-601 prints? Heads, case, rods
I don't know, but can new heads be made w/o too much expense?
Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:53 pm
old chuck wrote:I think that DB licensed Volvo to build the DB601 or a later type.
Wouldn't surprise me. The Japanese built them as both the Atsuta AE1 and the Kawasaki Ha-40, the Italians as the Alfa Romeo "Monsone", and there were factories all over the 3rd Reich building them, principally in Czechoslovakia IIRC.
I recall that Mike Nixon had some comments on what it would take to make an engine like the Merlin from scratch, basically saying that it would be an immense effort. Just the magnesium front cover for the '601 he did for David Price I believe he quoted as costing $20K....
Still, it can be done, just takes skill, talent, and money, especially with the current state of 3d modelling and rapid prototyping. That roller-bearing crank would be fun though...
greg v.