questions on obtaining surplus military aircraft from D.M.

[Nathan]

Is it possible to obtain a few aircraft from Davis Monthan AFB? It would be for a museum. Such aircraft like a T-33, E1 Tracer, etc?

I am sure there is a load of red tape but if it is actually possible would anyone be able to provide a link or info regarding how to go about doing this?

Thanks,
Nathan

[N3Njeff]

believe you need to show proof of the museum status and contact the USAFM in dayton as I believe, they are the ones that control the assets of anything in DM for disposition to museums.

[Holedigger]

That sounds like the way they are handling WHOLE aircraft, AND they still OWN it no matter how much work you put into it. The more direct way out of DM is in little 4"x4" pieces which makes for a LOT of work. Like jigsaw puzzles?

[jamesintucson]

Is it possible to obtain a few aircraft from Davis Monthan AFB? It would be for a museum. Such aircraft like a T-33, E1 Tracer, etc?

I am sure there is a load of red tape but if it is actually possible would anyone be able to provide a link or info regarding how to go about doing this?

Thanks,
Nathan

From the Air Force Museum website. "The museum's Plans & Programs Division oversees the aircraft loaned for long-term outdoor static display at municipalities and veterans' organizations. For more information, call (937) 255-5174." That would only apply for Air Force aircraft. The Navy has an identical program but I can't find the contact info right now. Go to Pensacola's website and check their contact us page, that should get you going in the right direction.

James


James

[APG85]

Planes are best obtained AT retirement prior to entering AMARG. Owning Commands would rather send them to a Museum then have them processed into the boneyard because it's cheaper. For example, a C-130 can cost 30K to be pickled, but can be dropped off at your local museum (if it's at an airport) for dramatically less. Once it's been pickled in AMARG, it's no longer flyable (without great expense and effort) and it is no longer controlled by the owning Command i.e. AMC, AFSOC, ACC, etc.

[Rajay]

I had a chance to chat with Harry Doan one day at his hangar in New Smyrna Beach, FL. (This was 20+ years ago while I was still in school at ERAU.) He was telling me about how he got his C-123K out of Davis-Monthan and he was practically ranting about the "corruption" inherent in the system.

In the case of his C-123, he said it was part of a "Lot" of airplanes that were being sold, primarily as scrap. He said that the lot included something like two dozen C-121's, a T-42 (Beech Baron B-55), his C-123, and some other things. Harry said that some doctors had bid on the Baron, he bid on the C-123, and pretty much nobody else was interested in anything else.

That's where it got "fun." Harry said that the bidding process was either not "sealed bids" or that the Air Force pretty much leaked the value of the other bids to the local aircraft/aluminum scrapyards. One of the scrapyards turned around and submitted a bid for the whole "lot" (including the 24 C-121's) for a total that was just slightly more than the other individual bids combined.

Of course, the scrapyard "won" the bidding, got 24 C-121's to cut up and salvage for parts and scrap aluminum, and then they offered to sell the other airplanes like the C-123 and the Baron to the other bidders. The scrapyard ended up getting the C-121's for almost nothing by recovering their expenses by selling the other airplanes.

I don't know if that is how it is always done, or if Harry was exaggerating a little bit, but it may give you an idea of what to look out for.

[tex-fan]

i have heard if you are a city or vfw or museum, and you do get an aircraft. you are responsable for the transport AND the EPA guide lines [fuel, oil, etc] i heard $10,000 to $30,000 for the EPA stuff depending on the size of aircraft. and yes, they do always own it. but if it is kept up in reansonably good condition they probably would never come get it. Pate museum lost theirs, but they let them go to terrible shape. a few of the guide line are; said plane must be kept in presentable condition, must be where vandals can not get to it. there is around 60 t-33s at Davis Monthan AFB [the last time google went over] i wish you the best of luck getting one of them. i love those t-33s and it would be GREAT to see you get at least one out safe and sound and in a museum.

[retroaviation]

So, with all of that being said.......what about when someone is TRYING to put some of the aircraft (that they don't even own) back into "presentable condition," and they all of a sudden turn around and want the aircraft "cut up where they sit?"

I'm sorry, but it's a double standard that they have there. And yes, I have first hand knowledge of this.

Gary

[tex-fan]

Oh boy Gary, you said a mouth full. the process i laid out is what i was told to me by a VERY kind volunter at PIMA. and for the most part it probably works fine, for the planes they are considering letting out. 'DOUBLE STANDARD' you say, well lets see:
there was the B-47 that was at the Ok fairgrounds rotting on a pole, when the fairgrounds said they didn't want it any more [along with a couple others] the AF said scrap it. had it not been for the GOOD folks at the Kansas Avaition Museum it would have been turned into beer cans,
There's the aircraft at Edwards AFB sitting derlict in the weeds http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... sc&start=0 [b-58, 2 X-21s, 2 F-101s and a B-47] out where vandals are getting to it ALL the time, AND THAT'S ON AIR FORCE PROPERTY.
so does the AF always do the right [or even the logical] thing. NO, there are humans involved.
but HFM just got a F-89 for salvation. so the right thing does happen.

as for a certin F-101 and F-105, ALL us WIXers are just hoping that the RIGHT human with the PROPER authority says:
"hey there's a guy trying to save a 101 and 105, that we really shouln't have any say over any way, leave the guy alone, and let him finish his project"

[retroaviation]

Well, that's kind of my point. If they have rules in place, they should be the same for everyone. It shouldn't depend on "which human" makes themselves the authority figure for each different airplane.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it is frustrating nonetheless. Oh well, we just gotta play their games if we're gonna save these planes I guess.

Gary

[mustangdriver]

It is a system with flaws, without a doubt. But you can't just say the NMUSAF and NMNA aircraft should n't be worked on, or that museums shouldn't try to get those aircraft put on loan out of fear that the museum will take them back. I have done alot of work on aircraft that were piles of scrap, worked with a group of people to get it to almost flying condition, to have the aircraft moved to another location, and this was all done by a private warbird owner. The value is getting the chance to work on these aircraft.

[Mudge]

Do I need to say it for the xxxxth time? "What good's a little power if you can't abuse it?"

Mudge the cynic

[retroaviation]

Chris, nobody is suggesting that the NMUSAF or the NMNA aircraft don't get worked on. Heck, that's what lots of folks want to do. And no, I'm not bashing the organizations here, as I do appreciate what they've both done to save airplanes. As mentioned before, it's just frustrating to be bullied by "big brother"....especially when they no longer even own airplanes that they are threatening to cut up.

And getting back to the topic of this thread, I've personally heard exactly the same thing that Holedigger said at the beginning of this thread, by multiple individuals (including a NMUSAF representative). However, IF there is a way for museums to get airplanes out of Davis Monothan, then it would be great to see some of them get out of there.

Gary

[mustangdriver]

Hey Gary, I was actually addressing something I had heard a few times here while trying to get feedback on b-17 stuff for Grissom. Not a direct reply to you at all man.

[Canso42]

There's a story on AMARG in the new Warbird Digest that came out last week. I found it both interesting and discouraging. I'm cynical like Mudge. The Govt will always choose lining some non aviation desk driver's pockets before preserving history.