Smoke systems

[RyanShort1]

How hard is it to set up an aircraft with a smoke system? What all is involved?

Ryan

[Matt Gunsch]

Ryan,
Depends on the plane. If someone has done one of the same type before, you can use thier paperwork as the approved data for your install, and just copy what they did, otherwise you have to get a field approval, or find a STC approved system.
The nuts and bolts end is not hard, it is just a tank, pump, relay, solonoid, injectors and assorted plumbing and wiring. I have done a number of T-6 systems if you want more details, just ask

[Jack Cook]

Just don't put them in the tip tanks of your T-33

[RyanShort1]

Just don't put them in the tip tanks of your T-33

Sounds like a story to me... Wanna share?:wink:

Ryan

[Jack Cook]

Cause of the fatal crash of Frank Sanders in the T-33 Red Knight

[Matt Gunsch]

Cause of the fatal crash of Frank Sanders in the T-33 Red Knight

That is not what the NTSB had to say
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id= ... 104&rpt=fa
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id= ... 104&rpt=fi
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 3123&key=1

[Jack Cook]

My understanding was that the placement of the smokewinders in the tip caused a wing or aileron fludder (?) and subsequent wing failure.
The next Red Kight had the smoke winders mounted on the under wing pylons.

[Matt Gunsch]

I remember reading about that being the theory at the time, just pointed out the NTSB did not even mention the smoke system.

[Jack Cook]

That seems like a fill in the blank cause.
a/c doing acro and wings fells off. Pilot error....bing-bang-boom

[RyanShort1]

That seems like a fill in the blank cause.
a/c doing acro and wings fells off. Pilot error....bing-bang-boom

I dunno... what if he let the passenger try a maneuver and they exceeded the limits? That sounds more likely to me than that the smoke system that had been on it for a while suddenly caused the failure. When I get home, I'm going to have to look, because I actually think I have pictures of that plane.

Ryan

[bdk]

My understanding was that the aircraft was flying with minimum fuel in the tip tanks which wasn't the normal operating condition when aerobatics were performed. The thinking was that the aft CG of the tip tanks due to the smoke generator installation (without fuel in the forward part of the tank) induced wing flutter.

I watched those tip tanks being built and a bulkhead was installed to make the back of the tank a dry bay for the smoke generator. I don't recall where the smoke oil was kept, but I would guess another bulkhead was added to segregate the smoke oil from the fuel, possibly also in the aft end of the tip tank.

Frank Sanders was always a racer at heart. I think he was into drag racing before he ever bought his first airplane. Anything he designed he tried to make better- rather than going the easy way by mounting the smoke generator on a pylon, he spent a considerable amount of time burying them in the tip tanks to minimize their drag impact.

The story I heard was that Tony LeVier, who had done test piloting for Lockheed on the P-80 and T-33 (among others), suggested not messing with the T-33's tip tanks since they had a lot of problems with them in flight testing which required considerable development. Just a story I heard around the airport, I have no confirmation.

Evidence to the contrary of pilot error (for the suggested flutter cause) could only be provided by doing ground vibration testing of an aircraft in that condition which is not practical for the accident investigation of a single expiremental aircraft with a unique tip tank configuration. I'm guessing that was how the most likely cause was determined.

[warbird1]

Did Sander's T-33 have hot or cold seats in it? Not that it would have made much difference, it sounds like, but just curious.

[51fixer]

Did Sander's T-33 have hot or cold seats in it? Not that it would have made much difference, it sounds like, but just curious.

The seats were cold.
He was adding a back seat to CAC Sabre at the time as well with no ejection seats installed. It was a lot of changes and modifications to the fus as I recall.
I remember being at Chino when the news of the crash came in. It took several hours to confirm the losses of Frank and his passenger.
These are the events that really never get solved. The smoke oil was contained in an aft compartment of the tip tank. It was possible that you could have a full load of smoke oil but the rest would be empty so you could be a bit aft cg in the tank along with the weight of the equipment.
I think part of this probably has to do with an inexperienced guy yanking on the stick in some way at a bad moment.
Rich

[Ethan]

A two seat sabre ?!? Did it ever fly ?

[51fixer]

A two seat sabre ?!? Did it ever fly ?

Not that I am aware of.
I recall Dennis stating it wouldn't fly without a hot seat but I don't remember any further work being done on it. Nor do I know where it went.
Rich