Declawing TSA

[Dan K]

It's a start...

http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-06-04_vote.asp

[JDK]

Thanks for that Dan, certainly a significant step.

Mod post:

“We have seen the TSA repeatedly use SDs to vastly expand existing requirements without consideration of the implementation challenges, operational impacts, and economic burdens such mandates impose on the aviation industry. Our most recent experience involves the expansion of security credentialing requirements to tens of thousands of pilots and employees at airports and aviation manufacturers without due consideration and process ….”

Note the approach stuck to the topic and why the action needed to be taken.

The same applies in this thread. Any generalised political rants, party political remarks and general carry on will receive sanction.

There's an important debate here - TOO important to have derailed by silly or actionable remarks. I'm sure we can stick to the topic at the level it needs.

Thanks in advance.

[A2C]

What else can be said, I second "it's a start". It's really a victory against expansion of gumint control. I think the real problem is the stuff that isn't caught, and kind of gets established before anyone notices it. This one was caught and is being defeated.

The other thing I've noticed here is that the EAA has a lot of influence, and appears to be as strong as ever in lobbying Congress. Let's hope and pray it stays this way. Also, don't forget it was a close fight in the House of Reps. Amazing considering it's pretty far left.

Additionally keep this in mind, "freedom is like a piece of pie". Every slice of freedom that's removed cannot be brought back, and aviation is all about freedom.

[warbird1]

Wow, that's fantastic!

Just as aside for those of you who think pilots are whining about the TSA's unfettered, unchecked power, I will give you an example of how out of control it is. In the Airline industry, where I fly, a TSA official has supreme, immediate, unchallenged power to ground any airliner or pilot for any reason they deem necessary. They have the exact same power that an FAA inspector does. Captains at the airlines have had their "Pilot-in-Command" authority so diminished and watered down, that sometimes I wonder who's really in control. It is entirely possible, and even probable that a TSA inspector is not a U.S. Citizen and barely has a High School education. The amount of power given to these people is unbelievable!

I bring this up only because it can apply to warbirds as well. That mentality is all pervasive throughout the TSA. The TSA is a definite threat to the warbird movement, and hopefully this bill will get passed and put into law.

[JDK]

Also, don't forget it was a close fight in the House of Reps. Amazing considering it's pretty far left.

This isn't about 'left' or 'right' as far as I can see, except for those that have to cast everything in these terms.

It is entirely possible, and even probable that a TSA inspector is not a U.S. Citizen and barely has a High School education. The amount of power given to these people is unbelievable!

I bring this up only because it can apply to warbirds as well. That mentality is all pervasive throughout the TSA. The TSA is a definite threat to the warbird movement, and hopefully this bill will get passed and put into law.

Poorly educated is a point to push - can you document it?

Given the aspect 'war' in the name, I don't think pushing the restrictions on warbirds specifically is a good idea - at best it is a leisure and commemorative activity, and can be seen as a lot worse by the general public. Think of the warbird industry as as aspect of general aviation, and the a motor for the American economy. That'll play well anywhere.

Just a couple of thoughts.

[A2C]

restrictions on warbirds specifically is a good idea

I don't think pushing gov restrictions on any aviation activity is a good idea.

This isn't about 'left' or 'right' as far as I can see, except for those that have to cast everything in these terms.

If you call it how it really is, Left generally stands for socialist policies and restrictions, and rt stands for personal responsibility and empowerment.

Last edited by A2C on Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

[warbird1]

Poorly educated is a point to push - can you document it?

Given the aspect 'war' in the name, I don't think pushing the restrictions on warbirds specifically is a good idea - at best it is a leisure and commemorative activity, and can be seen as a lot worse by the general public. Think of the warbird industry as as aspect of general aviation, and the a motor for the American economy. That'll play well anywhere.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Good points, JDK! I didn't even think of the negative connotation associated with "warbirds". Perhaps antique or old airplanes as a part of General aviation, as you say, is the correct approach.

Regarding the poorly educated comment - that is based off of my many thousands of interactions with TSA officials since it was created some 8 years ago. I deal with them on a daily basis when I fly. I can't officially document that since I don't have access to their education records, but it's pretty obvious from talking to people when a lot of them can't even speak English (those are the U.S. born ones!) When someone uses double negatives, subject/verb disagreement, improper tense, improper person, etc, it's fairly obvious that they didn't get very far in their education. It's glaringly obvious. Also, I can tell they are not educated by their inability to comprehend situations, inability for deductive reasoning, inability to apply knowledge, etc. In addition a lot of them look very unprofessional with sloppy uniforms, lots of tattoos showing and earrings that are displayed while on duty. Typically speaking, an "educated" employee will have a little more pride in their uniform and know that showing excessive tattoos and earrings while on duty does not reflect positively upon the TSA.

Now before anybody lambasts me, there ARE good, hard-working TSA folks out there, but unfortunately the bad ones greatly overshadow the good ones and makes the organization a "laughing stock" amongst a lot of pilots.

That's about as good as I can get JDK. Also, if you go to the official TSA website and look up their hiring requirements, a lot of them don't require USA citizen status, or any education standards.

[JDK]

Warbird1,
You make a good point regarding the chain of presentation-professionalism-education-capability of such people.

Thinking on from here, it might be worth noting anecdotal evidence as it occurs.

You'd be amazed at the difference in reaction between 'these guys are poorly educated clowns' to "On the x date a male TSA employee said / did this with this effect", and "on y date..." and so on, when submitting evidence / views to their senator, EAA etc. In fact, I'd suggest it would be a worthwhile task for any WIX member to do - a great way not to get mad, but get even - by getting them gone.

I don't think restrictions on warbirds specifically is a good idea

I don't think pushing gov restrictions on any aviation activity is a good idea.

The general public don't give a hang what you want to do, and if handled better by other people capable of taking better to them, you are going to have your freedoms clipped. Carry on coming over as a 'person' who can't spell 'government' (or quote properly - it's not big, and it's not clever) then you'll damage other people's ability to enjoy themselves and work in aviation.

Secondly your recent posts suggesting the creation of unairworthy aircraft replicas, and the 'just go fly' with an electrical failure in an aircraft indicates why there are mandatory regulations in aviation. I certainly don't mind if you kill yourself, but I do object to you killing others with stupidity, and I like to know my pilots and mechanics are trained and certified to standards, rather than the anarchist approach to aviation you are happy with.

My specific point is that ex- military aircraft can carry pretty negative connotations if presented wrongly. I don't need big crayons to draw a picture of people playing dress up with old weapons perhaps not being the kind of thing that's adding to the quality of a society. If I wanted to close down a warbird operation, you'd be just the kind of person I'd like to poke a couple of times in front of a reporter to ensure you alienate the general public, and bang no more play for you and you gang.

Try and think two steps ahead, please, and play for the team, rather than working on own goals.

This isn't about 'left' or 'right' as far as I can see, except for those that have to cast everything in these terms.

If you call it how it really is, Left generally stands for socialist policies and restrictions, and rt stands for personal responsibility and empowerment.

No. It's not. Remember who brought in the TSA and empowered them - President Bush. Your summary of the political spectrum is just so wrong that it's not worth discussing; and while you 'know you are right', just remember, it's those who 'know they are right' that are often caught out.

But here and now, and on topic, YOU need as many votes on your side as you can get - it was a cross party vote and it was narrow. Projecting your simplistic, irrelevant partisan views will alienate votes that you need.

Regards,

[PinecastleAAF]

No. It's not. Remember who brought in the TSA and empowered them - President Bush. Your summary of the political spectrum is just so wrong that it's not worth discussing; and while you 'know you are right', just remember, it's those who 'know they are right' that are often caught out.

Bingo. His rants frequently stumble over pesky facts like that. It is the gift that keeps on giving. I think of it as the WIX comedy tour.

[RyanShort1]

Secondly your recent posts suggesting the creation of unairworthy aircraft replicas, and the 'just go fly' with an electrical failure in an aircraft indicates why there are mandatory regulations in aviation. I certainly don't mind if you kill yourself, but I do object to you killing others with stupidity, and I like to know my pilots and mechanics are trained and certified to standards, rather than the anarchist approach to aviation you are happy with.

James,

Brilliant post.

Also on the point above that James made, Chris, it is definitely annoying to the professional pilots here (I'm pretty sure) for such attitudes to be posted. If you have done any flying at all you should be familiar with the pilot's "hazardous attitudes" and some of your posts display them in droves. This could look pretty bad and gives more fodder to stupid media who latch on to such statements.

As far as the TSA goes - it's painfully obvious that the point about education level and understanding of a situation and such is a problem. They're often not willing to think critically about a situation. It's weird how it seems the bums are ruling at the airports. It would be interesting to try and compile some data as James has mentioned.

Ryan

[Dan K]

An additional point of note is that it isn't just an EAA lobby effort, but a combination of aviation organizations which also includes AOPA.

The following blurb from the EAA website suggests they wish to continue this effort by documenting episodes of conflict between pilots/aviation-related staff and the TSA.

As EAA continues these efforts ... we encourage members who have had first hand adverse experiences as a result of this new directive to write their Congressional Representative and Senators to explain their issues and share their personal experiences. Please remember to send a copy to EAA at govt@eaa.org.

“We continue to press TSA on this issue and the impact it is having on general aviation,” said Macnair. “We will not give up and will continue to fight on behalf of our members to seek a process that meets TSA’s security objectives and does not interfere with our freedom of flight and access to airports nationwide.”

[brucev]

No. It's not. Remember who brought in the TSA and empowered them - President Bush. Your summary of the political spectrum is just so wrong that it's not worth discussing; and while you 'know you are right', just remember, it's those who 'know they are right' that are often caught out.

But here and now, and on topic, YOU need as many votes on your side as you can get - it was a cross party vote and it was narrow. Projecting your simplistic, irrelevant partisan views will alienate votes that you need.

Regards,

Left and right are not contained by the bounds of a political party, but the summation of our left being in large part the genesis of many steps toward excessive government control is dead on correct. Your condescending dismissal of any political statement not your own grows more grating by the day.

[gary1954]

Apparently there are 211 members that have not visited the NASM, and freak out at the term WARBIRD, believing the Warbird will attack them at any time. THere are none so dumb as those who will not learn, none so blind as those who will not see. Every warbird flying, on on static display is an educational tool for the young to learn about how war is an ugly thing, and how it take a brave warrior to fight evil and oppression. It makes them ask questions, and IF mommy and daddy are educated enough, they can informed their developing little minds about the depression, pre WWII, the war, and post war America.....oh right, that is asking a lot, as there are a ot of mommies and daddies that don't have a clue. God, and I ever thenkful that I have educated my kids. One served in the Ar Force, the other trains the military

[K5DH]

How we, the warbird community, present and represent ourselves is vitally important in stemming the growing tide of anti-GA and anti-warbird mandates and legisplation. We must come across, unconditionally, as being educated, intelligent, articulate, and safety-minded. The public seem to have a general opinion that warbird owners are a bunch of wealthy cowboys and bubbas who like to play fast and loose with expensive and dangerous toys. I'm sure there are a few warbird owners who fit that description, but percentage-wise, it's a small number. Most owners and operators are the antithesis of that incorrect public perception. But, you know the old saying: "One bad apple spoils the whole basketfull." In the court of public opinion, we must endeavour to be beyond reproach. When we write to our senators and congressmen, or to our newspapers and magazines, or we appear in front of a television camera or a live audience, what we write or say must be factual, well thought-out, and free from emotional charge, and our spelling and grammar must be excellent. If we are perceived as uneducated dopes or arrogant jerks, we'll be brushed aside and our desires will be given no consideration, and our credibility will further diminish. Let's not allow this to happen, because it will eventually spell the end for warbird flying.

Cheers,

[gary1954]

Well Said/written Dean