The Yamamoto Mission - the controversy, maybe avoided?
Sun May 24, 2009 11:35 am
Seeing Shay's great pics of Glacier Girl's gun camera in the nose cap reminds me of something I've wondered on occasion:
Why didn't the 18 April 1943 (an easy date to remember because it was the first anniversary of the Doolittle Raid) "Yamamoto Mission" P-38s have gun cameras installed/working/used/etc.? Sure would have saved a LOT of needless wasted time, heartache, and ill-will towards others over a lifetime in some cases, don't you think?
I'm guessing (I've never seen the issue brought up in any book on the mission, but I may have missed it - 'my bad' if so) that at that time and place they simply weren't using them for whatever reason as part of their SOP, and of course nobody knew beforehand the 'fallout' that would occur over who exactly got THE kill.
If you are reading this, you most likely know that Rex Barber is now generally regarded to have downed the admiral's plane single-handedly. Tom Lanphier comes out smelling pretty badly in this whole thing, and in some respects deservedly so since he stirred the sh*tpot himself, but hell, HE WENT on the mission! That took a huge measure of guts, and for that I tip my hat to him.
For further reading on the famous mission, a good book I enjoyed immensely is Lightning Strike, by Donald A. Davis:
http://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Strike- ... 063&sr=1-1
Wade
Why didn't the 18 April 1943 (an easy date to remember because it was the first anniversary of the Doolittle Raid) "Yamamoto Mission" P-38s have gun cameras installed/working/used/etc.? Sure would have saved a LOT of needless wasted time, heartache, and ill-will towards others over a lifetime in some cases, don't you think?
I'm guessing (I've never seen the issue brought up in any book on the mission, but I may have missed it - 'my bad' if so) that at that time and place they simply weren't using them for whatever reason as part of their SOP, and of course nobody knew beforehand the 'fallout' that would occur over who exactly got THE kill.
If you are reading this, you most likely know that Rex Barber is now generally regarded to have downed the admiral's plane single-handedly. Tom Lanphier comes out smelling pretty badly in this whole thing, and in some respects deservedly so since he stirred the sh*tpot himself, but hell, HE WENT on the mission! That took a huge measure of guts, and for that I tip my hat to him.
For further reading on the famous mission, a good book I enjoyed immensely is Lightning Strike, by Donald A. Davis:
http://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Strike- ... 063&sr=1-1
Wade
Sun May 24, 2009 12:38 pm
I've wondered about that myself. I know they had more problems in the tropics with the heat and moisture being bad on film and cameras, but I had not heard a definitive on why no film on that mission. Flying out of remote bases that had enough problems getting spares and supplies...perhaps film was low on the list. We bring film or beer in the ice chest, what is it guys!?!?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Inquiring minds want to know!
Sun May 24, 2009 3:48 pm
easy, the early model P-38's like Glacier Girl had the gun camera in the nose, which they found out was next to useless because of the vibrations caused by the guns firing. That is why on the later model of P-38's the gun camera was relocated to the left drop tank pylon.
Sun May 24, 2009 4:23 pm
Cool! So they just didn't even bother with film because it wouldn't turn out anyways! Golly, who'd a thunk that mounting a camera next to 4 50's and a 20mm would cause that much vibration!! 
?????
Sun May 24, 2009 5:27 pm
Matt is correct about the vibrations.
The other big problem was heat and moisture which lead to mold.
I've got still photos printed on Guadalcanal and you can see the
mold all over on most of them.
The last problem was in just getting film.
The other big problem was heat and moisture which lead to mold.
I've got still photos printed on Guadalcanal and you can see the
mold all over on most of them.
The last problem was in just getting film.
Sun May 24, 2009 11:23 pm
Aloha All,
LOTS of hoopla about who shot down a BETTY...sigh.
The fact is that REX BARBER killed the Admiral LONG BEFORE the aircraft crashed ("long before" means by many seconds before the plane crashed).
In speaking with Rex in Jan-Feb 1983, I related the autopsy report of the Admiral's body to wit that the Admiral was seated in a chair....was evidently twisted to his left to look toward the REAR (Barber's position) when his body was hit by TWO 50cal bullets. One hit the left rear of the torso and caame out of the chest, the other (well go ahead and read the thang in RELUCTANT ADMIRAL)...
Even if we give Tom Lanphier any inch in his debate...he could NOT prove such bullet strikes to the Admiral's body were his (his stated position was 90 degrees to the starboard of the BETTY).
Oh, yes, I spoke with Tom Lanphier in Feb-Mar 1983 and in 1985 briefly met him. I met Rex in 1988.
That sorta makes Lanphier's arguement moot.
Cheers,
David Aiken
LOTS of hoopla about who shot down a BETTY...sigh.
The fact is that REX BARBER killed the Admiral LONG BEFORE the aircraft crashed ("long before" means by many seconds before the plane crashed).
In speaking with Rex in Jan-Feb 1983, I related the autopsy report of the Admiral's body to wit that the Admiral was seated in a chair....was evidently twisted to his left to look toward the REAR (Barber's position) when his body was hit by TWO 50cal bullets. One hit the left rear of the torso and caame out of the chest, the other (well go ahead and read the thang in RELUCTANT ADMIRAL)...
Even if we give Tom Lanphier any inch in his debate...he could NOT prove such bullet strikes to the Admiral's body were his (his stated position was 90 degrees to the starboard of the BETTY).
Oh, yes, I spoke with Tom Lanphier in Feb-Mar 1983 and in 1985 briefly met him. I met Rex in 1988.
That sorta makes Lanphier's arguement moot.
Cheers,
David Aiken
Mon May 25, 2009 12:22 am
Thanks, Matt - makes sense to me. 
That comes under the 'for whatever reason' I cited above ... I figured the sin was one of commission, i.e., an operational consideration, rather than one of omission (D'oh! Forgot the darn film! OK, who shot down the Bettys ... Lanphier, you've got your hand up, what'd you see??
)
Wade
That comes under the 'for whatever reason' I cited above ... I figured the sin was one of commission, i.e., an operational consideration, rather than one of omission (D'oh! Forgot the darn film! OK, who shot down the Bettys ... Lanphier, you've got your hand up, what'd you see??
)
Wade
Mon May 25, 2009 6:02 am
i don't think the gray area will ever be turned white!!
Mon May 25, 2009 8:17 am
What matters is it was a successful operation, removing a formidable leader. The 'who' ego thing is trivial. Without the work of many, those who pressed the triggers wouldn't even have been in the right place at the right time. Their effort was one last tricky and successful stage in a long, complex chain - a team, national operation.
Shakespeare seems to have it: "...but that was in another country; And besides, the wench is dead."
Shakespeare seems to have it: "...but that was in another country; And besides, the wench is dead."
Mon May 25, 2009 8:30 am
Thanks, David, for your input above. Always on target.
It's been a while since I've 'examined' the mission, but here goes, from memory -
Normally in situations like this I'd agree with your assessment, Tom, there's a lot of 'gray' in these types of situations - BUT in this particular case, as David mentions above, the admiral's Betty and his body were found in short order by the Japanese (IIRC), thus the autopsy ...
Further, based on the direct statements of the P-38 pilots and other witnesses, as compared to the later forensic evidence (the autopsy, and expert analysis of the actual Betty still in the jungle ... it was shot up from the rear, not the side), Barber got the Yamamoto kill, period.
The group were elated at the mission's success immediately afterwards, and as I remember the story Lanphier immediately wrote the after action report personally and got Mitchell to sign off on it. He annointed himself the 'obvious' victor over the admiral's plane, and IIRC Barber had questions about the account but didn't vigorously pursue a correction - after all, who could really know at that time?
The press back then ran with it. Lightning Strike, the book I cite above, goes into detail about the soap opera in the years following ... Glines' book about the mission is supposed to be a good one as well. I need to get it.
I have a little bit of audio on one of my DVDs from the participating pilots about the mission - need to go back and revisit this whole thing; what started out as a simple question in my first post about the use of gun cameras may end up as a painting one day ... won't be the first one on the subject, but maybe I'll find a new way to approach this very interesting episode. Would make a good movie, don't you think?
Wade
tom d. friedman wrote:i don't think the gray area will ever be turned white!!
It's been a while since I've 'examined' the mission, but here goes, from memory -
Normally in situations like this I'd agree with your assessment, Tom, there's a lot of 'gray' in these types of situations - BUT in this particular case, as David mentions above, the admiral's Betty and his body were found in short order by the Japanese (IIRC), thus the autopsy ...
Further, based on the direct statements of the P-38 pilots and other witnesses, as compared to the later forensic evidence (the autopsy, and expert analysis of the actual Betty still in the jungle ... it was shot up from the rear, not the side), Barber got the Yamamoto kill, period.
The group were elated at the mission's success immediately afterwards, and as I remember the story Lanphier immediately wrote the after action report personally and got Mitchell to sign off on it. He annointed himself the 'obvious' victor over the admiral's plane, and IIRC Barber had questions about the account but didn't vigorously pursue a correction - after all, who could really know at that time?
The press back then ran with it. Lightning Strike, the book I cite above, goes into detail about the soap opera in the years following ... Glines' book about the mission is supposed to be a good one as well. I need to get it.
I have a little bit of audio on one of my DVDs from the participating pilots about the mission - need to go back and revisit this whole thing; what started out as a simple question in my first post about the use of gun cameras may end up as a painting one day ... won't be the first one on the subject, but maybe I'll find a new way to approach this very interesting episode. Would make a good movie, don't you think?
Wade
Mon May 25, 2009 10:07 am
Hi Wade,
In my initial call with Tom Lanphier in the winter 1982-3, he was immediately defensive about HIS version...and I related that I wanted only to obtain HIS verssion which he had later printed in a newspaper in hopes to determine who shot down Ray Hines. He calmed down.
When I placed all of the source material together for the initial issue of THE PACIFIC FRONT (my short lived attempt at publication), he was not pleased as I pointed out the death of the Admiral BEFORE Lanphier's version where he fired a single burst into the BETTY.
When Lanphier attended the opening of the "Doolittle Room" at the University of Texas at Dallas' McDermitt Library, we made eye contact and he finally came up to me and asked where we had previously met. I related that this was our first eye contact, however we had exchanged phone calls and letters, and his receipt of that issue where I printed the source material... His eyes grew cold and he turned on his heel and we never spoke another word.
In 1988, Rex and Kenji Yanagiya shared the spot light at the Admiral Nimitz Symposium on that combat action. I cherish the photo of Rex on my right and Yanagiya on my left.
Cheers,
David
In my initial call with Tom Lanphier in the winter 1982-3, he was immediately defensive about HIS version...and I related that I wanted only to obtain HIS verssion which he had later printed in a newspaper in hopes to determine who shot down Ray Hines. He calmed down.
When I placed all of the source material together for the initial issue of THE PACIFIC FRONT (my short lived attempt at publication), he was not pleased as I pointed out the death of the Admiral BEFORE Lanphier's version where he fired a single burst into the BETTY.
When Lanphier attended the opening of the "Doolittle Room" at the University of Texas at Dallas' McDermitt Library, we made eye contact and he finally came up to me and asked where we had previously met. I related that this was our first eye contact, however we had exchanged phone calls and letters, and his receipt of that issue where I printed the source material... His eyes grew cold and he turned on his heel and we never spoke another word.
In 1988, Rex and Kenji Yanagiya shared the spot light at the Admiral Nimitz Symposium on that combat action. I cherish the photo of Rex on my right and Yanagiya on my left.
Cheers,
David
Mon May 25, 2009 10:33 am
It is a shame the way the whole thing turned into a big pissing match. It took the WHOLE FLIGHT to do the job, as one pilot/AC alone could not have done it. Of course the press wanted a hero, it was a HUGE morale boost. They should have handled it a bit differently, but since when has the press been interested in accuracy! There was the fog of war as well.