Questions about victories!

1. What ALLIED aircraft (type) shot down the most axis aircraft?
2. What American aircraft (type) shot down the most axis aircraft?
3. What Axis aircraft (type) shot down the most allied aircraft?
4. What Axis aircraft (type) shot down the most American aircraft?

Sorry, too lazy to do the research ... I'm sure some of you scholars know the answers ...

Last edited by Hellcat on Sun May 24, 2009 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

I'm going to say
1. F6F
2. F6F
3. ME-109
4. ME-109
Bonus Q most aces F6F

I believe I read more than 300 ace's in Hellcat's. How many in P-51's, P-47's?, P-38's? ...

[tom d. friedman]

f6f is correct

[Enemy Ace]

I guess the Eastern front never happened? the highest scoring Allied ace was a Russian, so has anybody ever researched the soviet ace tallies?
Kozhedub - 62 victories, at least 6 other russian pilots had scores over 50+. female pilot budanova had 20+.
I'm guessing the answer to #1 would be the P-39/P-63. Or maybe Lagg-7?
the other 3 answers I'd guess are right. Fer sure the 109....

[mazdaP5]

I do believe the B-17 had more air to air victories than any other allied craft. I would think the early zeroes would have been the biggest baddies on the axis side.

[CAPFlyer]

I guess the Eastern front never happened? the highest scoring Allied ace was a Russian, so has anybody ever researched the soviet ace tallies?
Kozhedub - 62 victories, at least 6 other russian pilots had scores over 50+. female pilot budanova had 20+.
I'm guessing the answer to #1 would be the P-39/P-63. Or maybe Lagg-7?
the other 3 answers I'd guess are right. Fer sure the 109....

Sorry EA, but the official kill tallies are lower than that. Budanova had 11, not 20. Lydia Litvyak had 12.

Wiki has a very comprehensive and well referenced list - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... I_air_aces

Also, one has to consider that, while their kill numbers are high, their loss numbers are too (i.e., many of the aces also died) because both the Soviets and Germans (in addition to the Japanese) flew their pilots until they were no longer able either via injury or death. The rest of the Allied nations restricted the number of sorties that a pilot could fly and also progressively promoted successful pilots until they were in a non-flying position. This resulted in more Allied pilots becoming aces, but the highest scoring non-Soviet Allied pilot having far fewer kills.

[Enemy Ace]

My reference is "Soviet Aces of WWII" by Hugh Morgan.
The Budanova case is on P. 80.
Wiki is a free info source where anything can be posted until somebody says different. I prefer sources who are serious researchers such as Morgan.
P.83 states that the VVS pilots claimed over 40,000 enemy aircraft shot down. I don't believe that # includes partial or shared kills.

EA, your completely right!!! ... I was thinking Western Allies. Eastern Allies are a bit hazy aren't they? ... But you bring up a very interesteing subject about possibly the P-39 being a high scorer.

Capflyer also brings up a very interesting subject as well. My dad's logbook shows that after his missions with the sundowners from the Hornet, he seemed to have been sent stateside ... I wonder why US veterans were sent home so soon? ...

[Holedigger]

Sent home to train the "NEW" pilots, that and the PR of them being shot down doesn't play well at home. If you make them a hero, then they have to go home to sell War Bonds to finance the big shootin match.

Sent home to train the "NEW" pilots, that and the PR of them being shot down doesn't play well at home. If you make them a hero, then they have to go home to sell War Bonds to finance the big shootin match.

Interesting observation, I would tend to agree with you, but I would like to see some additional data. From what little I know my dad was certainly NOT treated like any sort of hero when me came home stateside ... And he was fine with that, as so many veterans.

[Holedigger]

Returning pilots stateside was also for their physical and mental health. They were finding that pilots that spent too long a stretch fighting, were just exhausted. Carrier operations even more so. I would be interested to know how many went back on second or third tours after coming home...anyone know? I know they did in Nam.

[Enemy Ace]

I wouldn't say it was all being returned stateside.....
Tommy McGuire.....KIA
Boyington......POW
Robert Tuck...POW
Douglas Bader.....POW
You get the picture.

[Glyn]

I do believe the B-17 had more air to air victories than any other allied craft. I would think the early zeroes would have been the biggest baddies on the axis side.

You will need to compare the claims by the B-17 gunners on the one hand and the German Quartermaster Generals returns on the other for the same dates. I suspect that what you will find will amaze you.

[k5083]

Actually, nobody knows the answer to these questions. Fighter pilots of all nations overclaimed kills anywhere from 2x to 5x their actual kills over the course of the war, depending on tactical circumstances and the conventions of the air arm or unit, as verified postwar from the loss records of the other side. This was all known to each side's brass at the time, but big kill numbers and lots of aces are good for morale, so they quietly used much lower and more reliable estimates for their own planning.

The majority of aces, who claimed 5, 6, or 7 kills, actually never got 5.

The total numbers and the kill ratios claimed for aircraft like the Hellcat are .

Although overclaiming was universal, it occurred more at some times and places than at others, and therefore we cannot reliabily compare not only the absolute, but even the relative numbers of kills credited to different aircraft in different theatres.

Heavy bomber gunners often claimed around 10x the number of aircraft that the enemy actually lost, which is Glyn's point. No kill tallies for B-17s or B-24s, individually or collectively, can be taken seriously.

One could do systematic analysis to get the real data, making heavy use of the records of the side whose aircraft were shot down, except that (1) there would be major gaps in the data, (2) the question isn't of enough importance to interest any real historian, and (3) the pseudo historians who dominate the WWII-aviation-history genre are much too interested in perpetuating the old myths to be interested in the project.

August