Grumman Goose s/n 1084
Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:18 am
According to my research notes, Grumman Goose s/n 1084 was once owned by Superior Oil and operated in the Bahamas as VP-BAL in the 1950's and maybe 1960's. Until recently I could find no further information about Grumman Goose s/n 1084 other than the fact that Ellis Chernoff had photographed it in Miami in 1976.
Ellis' 1976 photo is at: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 0650232/M/
This photo showed up on Airliners.net in January and claims to be the same serial number: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 1483358/M/
The 2009 photo looks like it could have been this same Goose too - photographed in Cali, Colombia in 2007: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 1212751/M/
Is there anyone out there who knows anything about either (or all) of them and who can confirm that they are in fact the same aircraft? Details of what happened to it between 1976 and 2009 would be helpful, too.
I have to wonder though if the first two photos are of the same aircraft. Although many Gooses have been modified at one point and then restored to their original configuration at a later time, I am doubtful about these two. The 1976 pic shows Pan Air retract floats and a Widgeon-type flat windshield. The 2009 pic shows stock fixed floats and a stock Grumman G-21 windshield.
And the current registration for N119AA is DINCA Inc. of Bear, DE - that appears to be hosted or represented by some kind of shell company.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ellis' 1976 photo is at: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 0650232/M/
This photo showed up on Airliners.net in January and claims to be the same serial number: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 1483358/M/
The 2009 photo looks like it could have been this same Goose too - photographed in Cali, Colombia in 2007: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Grumman- ... 1212751/M/
Is there anyone out there who knows anything about either (or all) of them and who can confirm that they are in fact the same aircraft? Details of what happened to it between 1976 and 2009 would be helpful, too.
I have to wonder though if the first two photos are of the same aircraft. Although many Gooses have been modified at one point and then restored to their original configuration at a later time, I am doubtful about these two. The 1976 pic shows Pan Air retract floats and a Widgeon-type flat windshield. The 2009 pic shows stock fixed floats and a stock Grumman G-21 windshield.
And the current registration for N119AA is DINCA Inc. of Bear, DE - that appears to be hosted or represented by some kind of shell company.
Any help would be appreciated.
Last edited by Rajay on Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:53 pm
Interesting problem alright.
I've only seen two Gooses with Widgeon style windshields, 1084 and 1160 (N86640).
Changing floats isn't unusual, but going from a short step to a long step is kind of rare since the step was originally found to be too long.
At some point in the 60s and 70s 1084 was operated by Bahamasair, then in the early 70s by Out Island Airways.
It was rebuilt by Pan-Air in the early 70's and crashed short of the runway at Miami on the return delivery flight.
The wreck was sent back to Pan-Air and rebuilt again, then sent back to Bahamasair.
Back then had a modified exhaust, the short step and fixed floats, can't tell for certain about the windshield, but looking at the profile shots, they seem to have a curve going to the center post rather than a flat line.
By the time Chernoff shot it, it certainly had the new windshield, standard exhausts and Pan-Air floats.
The most recent photos it's back to fixed floats, a long step and standard windshield.
1084
1160 as N86640 when it was being operated by Kenmore Seaplane Svc.
(from a cig. ad)
I'm pretty sure it's the same airplane, but there is room for doubt.
I've only seen two Gooses with Widgeon style windshields, 1084 and 1160 (N86640).
Changing floats isn't unusual, but going from a short step to a long step is kind of rare since the step was originally found to be too long.
At some point in the 60s and 70s 1084 was operated by Bahamasair, then in the early 70s by Out Island Airways.
It was rebuilt by Pan-Air in the early 70's and crashed short of the runway at Miami on the return delivery flight.
The wreck was sent back to Pan-Air and rebuilt again, then sent back to Bahamasair.
Back then had a modified exhaust, the short step and fixed floats, can't tell for certain about the windshield, but looking at the profile shots, they seem to have a curve going to the center post rather than a flat line.
By the time Chernoff shot it, it certainly had the new windshield, standard exhausts and Pan-Air floats.
The most recent photos it's back to fixed floats, a long step and standard windshield.
1084
1160 as N86640 when it was being operated by Kenmore Seaplane Svc.
(from a cig. ad)
I'm pretty sure it's the same airplane, but there is room for doubt.
Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:22 pm
Mr Widgeon, I assume that you have time in Widgeons; do you have any stick (yoke) time in a Goose, too? I find your comments about the steps kinda telling.
Since I have been working at Antilles Seaplanes, I have taken every opportunity to pick the brains of every Goose (or other Grumman waterbird) pilot that I have met.
The consensus has been that the long step is safer for inexperienced pilots and more suitable for protected waters (lakes and rivers) while the short step is better for rough water or open sea conditions. If you don't know what you are doing, the short step can get you into a porpoising problem, but if you are an expert, the short step allows you to point the nose better and ride the swells in open water more "easily" - if that is really the right word.
What is your experience in this matter?
And thanks for the info on 1084 - did you happen to spend time at a Goose operation, either in Miami or in New Orleans at Pan Air in the 1970's?
Antilles currently owns s/n 1054, the ex-Texaco Goose (ex-NC3055) that was operated by Sun Oil and Pan Air (as N33S) in the 1960's and 1970's in New Orleans before going to Florida in '79 or so. A lot of its records from those days are missing too - probably thanks to the naughty import business it was involved in during the 1980's (as N66QA).
Since I have been working at Antilles Seaplanes, I have taken every opportunity to pick the brains of every Goose (or other Grumman waterbird) pilot that I have met.
The consensus has been that the long step is safer for inexperienced pilots and more suitable for protected waters (lakes and rivers) while the short step is better for rough water or open sea conditions. If you don't know what you are doing, the short step can get you into a porpoising problem, but if you are an expert, the short step allows you to point the nose better and ride the swells in open water more "easily" - if that is really the right word.
What is your experience in this matter?
And thanks for the info on 1084 - did you happen to spend time at a Goose operation, either in Miami or in New Orleans at Pan Air in the 1970's?
Antilles currently owns s/n 1054, the ex-Texaco Goose (ex-NC3055) that was operated by Sun Oil and Pan Air (as N33S) in the 1960's and 1970's in New Orleans before going to Florida in '79 or so. A lot of its records from those days are missing too - probably thanks to the naughty import business it was involved in during the 1980's (as N66QA).
Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:56 pm
No time in a Goose, but I've flown several Widgeons over the years.
I'm not a pilot, just a Grumman nut and have a fairy large collection of Gumman amphib photos.
The handle was given to me by my wife.
My Dad was a Widgeon pilot for McDermott and I grew up around them and I worked for Pan-Air during the '70s.
Hang around enough Widgeon and Goose pilots and you learn things that most other people couldn't care less about.
I know a gent who has quite a few hours in the Goose and might be able to help out on some of the finer points of Goose operations.
I'm not a pilot, just a Grumman nut and have a fairy large collection of Gumman amphib photos.
The handle was given to me by my wife.
My Dad was a Widgeon pilot for McDermott and I grew up around them and I worked for Pan-Air during the '70s.
Hang around enough Widgeon and Goose pilots and you learn things that most other people couldn't care less about.
I know a gent who has quite a few hours in the Goose and might be able to help out on some of the finer points of Goose operations.
Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:20 pm
I had some communications a while back with other people who worked at Pan Air in the 70's. One was a mechanic, but he said he only ever helped to open a Goose for an inspection one time and never had an opportunity to work on them again. The second guy I think was a pilot, but I'm betting that his name and contact info are in my e-mail at work.
Do you remember N33S from those days? Would you happen to have any photos of it then?
Do you remember N33S from those days? Would you happen to have any photos of it then?
Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:10 pm
I remember 33s alright.
I have 1 small photo of it taken by another member of the forum (The Inspector), but I don't have it loaded into P'bucket.
I have 1 small photo of it taken by another member of the forum (The Inspector), but I don't have it loaded into P'bucket.