Aussie Navy heritage flight - to be scrapped or downgraded??
Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:15 am
What countries beside UK and US operate heritage flight at airshows?
Australia does - very very small Air Force and Navy flying heritage aircraft assigned for airshows etc.
Compared to overseas, the RAAF and RAN has NEVER ever been allocated any decent level of funding for their museums and flying display aircraft.
THIS WONT CHANGE ANY TIME SOON OR AT ALL.. which is a crying shame, considering how much rare stuff is in the RAAF museum collection yet the buildings are inadequate for full display potentials...
It will take a massive change to get more building funds and bring it up to anywhere near close as a Dayton scale...
In news creeping out down under, the Royal Australian Navy (nowdays for those unaware - a helo based navy - long given up flying Heinmanns Hot Rod in 1984 and Trackers) is seeking to maybe disband their heritage flight - UH-1E , Firefly and a Sea Fury.
Issues are either to - shove it off to a non military base or drop operating it alltogether and have "soneone else" fly the aircraft and helos.
This would defeat the purpose of the RAN's military base museum and aviation in any capacity for Australia.
When you start to outsource or throw your heritage away.. there goes the purpose of remebering the fallen and past heros.
I do hope this reaches the mainstream as it a joke.. meanwhile politicians keep getting rises each few years that would easily kep a warbird fleet flying for a few decades....
Australia does - very very small Air Force and Navy flying heritage aircraft assigned for airshows etc.
Compared to overseas, the RAAF and RAN has NEVER ever been allocated any decent level of funding for their museums and flying display aircraft.
THIS WONT CHANGE ANY TIME SOON OR AT ALL.. which is a crying shame, considering how much rare stuff is in the RAAF museum collection yet the buildings are inadequate for full display potentials...
It will take a massive change to get more building funds and bring it up to anywhere near close as a Dayton scale...
In news creeping out down under, the Royal Australian Navy (nowdays for those unaware - a helo based navy - long given up flying Heinmanns Hot Rod in 1984 and Trackers) is seeking to maybe disband their heritage flight - UH-1E , Firefly and a Sea Fury.
Issues are either to - shove it off to a non military base or drop operating it alltogether and have "soneone else" fly the aircraft and helos.
This would defeat the purpose of the RAN's military base museum and aviation in any capacity for Australia.
When you start to outsource or throw your heritage away.. there goes the purpose of remebering the fallen and past heros.
I do hope this reaches the mainstream as it a joke.. meanwhile politicians keep getting rises each few years that would easily kep a warbird fleet flying for a few decades....
Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:34 am
Dear flyingheritage,
Please do a bit of research on what you've airily called 'heritage flights at airshows'. The structure and funding, not to mention military ownership and participation is completely different in the UK and the US. Their commitments (the BBMF are not just about airshows) are different and their roles are different.
The USAF doesn't operate vintage aircraft - the US Heritage Flights are a (as I understand it) military-civilian joint operation - and one that suits American structures and won't just transplant overseas.
The structure of the RNHF is different to the BBMF - and may be what the RANHF is working towards - a model that you seem to regard as a disaster. The Army Air Corps Historic Flight, I think is not active currently - they have always found it tough; and would probably in a similar funding corner to the RAN HF.
I'm afraid like a lot of enthusiasts you seem to think 'our guys' have a tough deal while there's milk and honey in other countries. That's just not the case.
The RAAF Museum isn't flush with cash - yet it is comparable to overseas organisations in funding and achievement based on GNP and per capita. There's a reason Dayton is the largest. What the RAAF Museum does, it does well, including being the only air force operating a Mustang (supported by other aircraft.) Stop knocking things.
Official heritage flying is a niche - not a must have.
Regards,
Please do a bit of research on what you've airily called 'heritage flights at airshows'. The structure and funding, not to mention military ownership and participation is completely different in the UK and the US. Their commitments (the BBMF are not just about airshows) are different and their roles are different.
The USAF doesn't operate vintage aircraft - the US Heritage Flights are a (as I understand it) military-civilian joint operation - and one that suits American structures and won't just transplant overseas.
The structure of the RNHF is different to the BBMF - and may be what the RANHF is working towards - a model that you seem to regard as a disaster. The Army Air Corps Historic Flight, I think is not active currently - they have always found it tough; and would probably in a similar funding corner to the RAN HF.
I'm afraid like a lot of enthusiasts you seem to think 'our guys' have a tough deal while there's milk and honey in other countries. That's just not the case.
The RAAF Museum isn't flush with cash - yet it is comparable to overseas organisations in funding and achievement based on GNP and per capita. There's a reason Dayton is the largest. What the RAAF Museum does, it does well, including being the only air force operating a Mustang (supported by other aircraft.) Stop knocking things.
Official heritage flying is a niche - not a must have.
Regards,
Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:53 am
JDK - if you read the point of my post - the Australian GOVERNMENTS - have and never will fund the RAN and RAAF Museums adequately.
How is seeking more fund knocking it?
Its pointing out how in Australia we do bugger all at Federal level to keep the museums going, barr a few $ and make them get donations.
It explains when i went to Point Cook in April last year , why i was gobsmacked at how poor displayed and cramped --- the official RAAF run and FEDEREALLY funded --- museum is and how much was not on display or easy to get at - all because years and years of government feel the museum like the RAN museum are not worth while their extra money.
No one in politics see museums of war as a ROI basket for them.
Now you compare that to US and UK museums and they have much better layouts and funding because they are major tourist attractions that get politcal notice and funding. ROI is easy with large crowd numbers seeing quality exhibits.
BACK IN OZ...
Federal Liberal and Labor Governments will never meet the enthusiasts view of a decent fund at a national museum level... yet feel happy to throw cash at anything that gets them voted meanwhile.
By the way the USAF does quite well with F-15, F-4, F-22 and private warbirds teaming up.
Something that we in Australia have only seen in last 2-3years, while overseas it been a long popular view.
How is seeking more fund knocking it?
Its pointing out how in Australia we do bugger all at Federal level to keep the museums going, barr a few $ and make them get donations.
It explains when i went to Point Cook in April last year , why i was gobsmacked at how poor displayed and cramped --- the official RAAF run and FEDEREALLY funded --- museum is and how much was not on display or easy to get at - all because years and years of government feel the museum like the RAN museum are not worth while their extra money.
No one in politics see museums of war as a ROI basket for them.
Now you compare that to US and UK museums and they have much better layouts and funding because they are major tourist attractions that get politcal notice and funding. ROI is easy with large crowd numbers seeing quality exhibits.
BACK IN OZ...
Federal Liberal and Labor Governments will never meet the enthusiasts view of a decent fund at a national museum level... yet feel happy to throw cash at anything that gets them voted meanwhile.
By the way the USAF does quite well with F-15, F-4, F-22 and private warbirds teaming up.
Something that we in Australia have only seen in last 2-3years, while overseas it been a long popular view.
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:08 am
I don't see it worth responding to most of that. It's not about return on investment.
If Australia's heritage tourist market was the size of the UK's, just like having a population or GNP of the UK, then, amazingly enough, the museums might be the size of the UK's. The comparison to the US is simply an order of magnitude greater.
I'd like to see a UK or US museum director's reaction to your proposition to their greater 'political clout'. Size for size, they are about the same leverage. (Actually the RAF Museum has less political leverage and air force support than the RAAF Museum.)
In many ways the RAN and RAAF museums are punching above their weight - but comparing them to US and UK examples is simply expecting ten times the achievement with a tenth or a hundredth of the support of all kinds.
You are always angry about something, and it's wearing. The museums we have and the achievements of the staff and volunteers are worth celebrating, not continual complaint about. As a volunteer at the RAAF Museum myself, I don't agree with your views, and I'm not going to enter a public debate on them.
Complaining about political status quo on a forum is a waste of space. Any politician who acted on your views as expressed here wouldn't deserve to stay in office.
Regards,
flyingheritage wrote:Now you compare that to US and UK museums and they have much better layouts and funding because they are major tourist attractions that get politcal notice and funding. ROI is easy with large crowd numbers seeing quality exhibits.
If Australia's heritage tourist market was the size of the UK's, just like having a population or GNP of the UK, then, amazingly enough, the museums might be the size of the UK's. The comparison to the US is simply an order of magnitude greater.
I'd like to see a UK or US museum director's reaction to your proposition to their greater 'political clout'. Size for size, they are about the same leverage. (Actually the RAF Museum has less political leverage and air force support than the RAAF Museum.)
In many ways the RAN and RAAF museums are punching above their weight - but comparing them to US and UK examples is simply expecting ten times the achievement with a tenth or a hundredth of the support of all kinds.
You are always angry about something, and it's wearing. The museums we have and the achievements of the staff and volunteers are worth celebrating, not continual complaint about. As a volunteer at the RAAF Museum myself, I don't agree with your views, and I'm not going to enter a public debate on them.
Complaining about political status quo on a forum is a waste of space. Any politician who acted on your views as expressed here wouldn't deserve to stay in office.
Regards,
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:16 am
Well consdiering last year ive managed to get funding from politicans for museums - it does work well if you try... and try with some persistence.
Maybe you have never tried hard enough?
Maybe you have never tried hard enough?
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:21 am
I can be darn well angry when i see.. yet again another example of where tax payers money is wasted on stuff that is not needed and hardly funded for stuff that is needed...
Anyone would and should get angry.
Anyone would and should get angry.
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:26 am
Kudos to RAAF Point Cooks for doing this:
http://airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/exhib ... isplay.htm
Every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday at 1pm, see one of our heritage aircraft in flight and learn about the process in close-up detail. This program enables visitors to see, hear and smell what flying is all about. Best of all, it is absolutely free! Bookings are not required. The Interactive Flying Displays feature a heritage aircraft in flight and may include an aerobatic display. Regular aircraft featured include the Winjeel, Harvard, CT4A, Sopwith Pup replica and Tiger Moth. Visiting aircraft, such as the DC3, Bird Dog or even a modern PC-9 are sometimes featured.
Old and young alike have fallen in love with this program that runs for most of the year (Christmas and New Year period excluded).Come along and see what's flying! You will be able to ask questions of the pilot and hear his radio calls during flight. The program is ideal for families and children's groups.If the weather is poor, the pilot will give a talk and answer questions inside the Museum instead of doing the flying display. This may occur without notice
http://airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/exhib ... isplay.htm
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:34 am
flyingheritage wrote:Well consdiering last year ive managed to get funding from politicans for museums - it does work well if you try... and try with some persistence.
Maybe you have never tried hard enough?
Of interest - how much funding did you suceed in obtaining, and for which museums?
Regards
Mark Pilkington
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:42 am
Enough for them to get what they were needing and that no body else had got them. I was very surprised how it was so easily handled by the funding body at government level.
I dont discuss deals on forum sorry Mark. But shows with some hard work and persistence anything can maybe hopefully work in favour of museums.
Another example is writing letters and persistence pays off for other people in that things get saved or approvals for memorials are done. My family has done a bit and managed to get things saved along with other people writing letters.
Every letter helps the governments know we THE PEOPLE are at their toes and wont stop... because their seats come from us the voters...
I dont discuss deals on forum sorry Mark. But shows with some hard work and persistence anything can maybe hopefully work in favour of museums.
Another example is writing letters and persistence pays off for other people in that things get saved or approvals for memorials are done. My family has done a bit and managed to get things saved along with other people writing letters.
Every letter helps the governments know we THE PEOPLE are at their toes and wont stop... because their seats come from us the voters...
Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:48 am
Thanks to west-front and Mark.
I've no interest in a contest over 'I've contributed more than you'; all real contributions are worthwhile. However I will plug Project 2014, for which I'm acting as press officer: http://www.boxkite2014.org/ Real construction of a real aircraft (replica) for Australia's military history, and the RAAF Museum. No bull.
No further comment on flying heritage's views. I've better things to contribute to.
Regards,
I've no interest in a contest over 'I've contributed more than you'; all real contributions are worthwhile. However I will plug Project 2014, for which I'm acting as press officer: http://www.boxkite2014.org/ Real construction of a real aircraft (replica) for Australia's military history, and the RAAF Museum. No bull.
No further comment on flying heritage's views. I've better things to contribute to.
Regards,
Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:35 am
Enough for them to get what they were needing and that no body else had got them. I was very surprised how it was so easily handled by the funding body at government level.
Hence my interest
I dont discuss deals on forum sorry Mark. But shows with some hard work and persistence anything can maybe hopefully work in favour of museums.
so perhaps you can retain the confidentiality of the museum and just indicate the approximate funding levels achieved? , $1K, $10K, $100k?
Regards
Mark Pilkington
Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:02 pm
JDK-
The SAAF Museum operates a Mustang also.
Tom-
The SAAF Museum operates a Mustang also.
Tom-
Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:14 pm
The reality is that airshows are not a necessary item. There are areas which need funding such as healthcare and education. I'd rather see a new hospital ward than another warbird returned to the air.
These interests of ours are exactly that - interests, hobbies, fields of non-essential knowledge. They shouldn't come ahead of what is vital for health and life.
Cheers,
Matt
These interests of ours are exactly that - interests, hobbies, fields of non-essential knowledge. They shouldn't come ahead of what is vital for health and life.
Cheers,
Matt
Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:01 pm
GilT wrote:The SAAF Museum operates a Mustang also.
Thanks Tom,
Fair comment. However, AFAIK, I think it's 'did' and 'intend to' as last info I've got is it's still under restoration after an undercarriage collapse.
http://www.saafmuseum.co.za/mustang.htm
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51regis ... 72202.html
(Also the current Warbirds Directory has that state of affairs at Jan 08...)
http://www.warbirdsdirectory.goodall.com.au/
In the interests of veracity and accuracy , I should add that the RAAF Museum's Mustang is the only Mustang operated by its original owner and with continuous ownership by that air force. It was also built in the same country as its air force operator.
It's them tricky adjectives, innit?
However it's currently undergoing a service, so isn't flying at the moment, but will be - and it sounds like quicker than the South Africans - but the best of luck to them too.
Regards,