China just after the war (pics)
Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:11 pm
Hey all. Just wanted to share a few of these. These pictures are part of a recently returned collection of family photos. Thanks to the internet and the extreme generosity of the couple that had held on to them for the past 20 years they are now back in the family. And now I'm sharing some of them with you fine folks.
The pictures where taken by my wife's great grandfather Col. Donald Winder USMC. Col. Winder served with III Amphibious Corps (atleast this unit, maybe more) and after the surrrender served in some capacity with the Tokyo trials.
The C-47 pictures were taken china by way of one picture inscription, while others might have been taken in French Indochina. The pictures were in the same group together and may all be the same airfield. Any French airfields in China?
Enjoy
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Okinawa 28 April 1945, - showing off his covered foxhole
China
Not sure who this is, but i imagine they don't pull out the stairs for just anyone.
Lucky Guy - anyone know who's the doll (I digress), anyone famous?
French Indochina?? In another picture the sign on the building says AEROGARE.
Can anyone make out anything on the Spit?
Couple random shots from this stack of photos.
The pictures where taken by my wife's great grandfather Col. Donald Winder USMC. Col. Winder served with III Amphibious Corps (atleast this unit, maybe more) and after the surrrender served in some capacity with the Tokyo trials.
The C-47 pictures were taken china by way of one picture inscription, while others might have been taken in French Indochina. The pictures were in the same group together and may all be the same airfield. Any French airfields in China?
Enjoy
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Okinawa 28 April 1945, - showing off his covered foxhole
China
Not sure who this is, but i imagine they don't pull out the stairs for just anyone.
Lucky Guy - anyone know who's the doll (I digress), anyone famous?
French Indochina?? In another picture the sign on the building says AEROGARE.
Can anyone make out anything on the Spit?
Couple random shots from this stack of photos.
Last edited by Shay on Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:23 pm
Great pics, thanks for posting!
Don't know anything about the Spit, unfortunately, but the Ki-48 "Lily" in Chinese markings is interesting. What nationality is the Lockheed? I'm thinking French.
SN
Don't know anything about the Spit, unfortunately, but the Ki-48 "Lily" in Chinese markings is interesting. What nationality is the Lockheed? I'm thinking French.
SN
Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:26 am
Great photographs. Thank you for sharing!
I'm curious about the Spitfire as well. I'm sure there's someone on here that can track down what it was doing there. And I wonder what came of it. Could it still be in China somwhere waiting to be discovered? Probably not eh?
-David
I'm curious about the Spitfire as well. I'm sure there's someone on here that can track down what it was doing there. And I wonder what came of it. Could it still be in China somwhere waiting to be discovered? Probably not eh?
-David
Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:11 am
Lily - Interesting!
Spitfire. It's a PR or FR version with the camera hatch in the radio-compartment door. Retractable tailwheel (the doors are visible) and I think there's a guy riding on the wing, which gives the impression of nose art.
Guesswork - looks like it may be in PRU blue, but with a replacement camouflaged rudder - but that might just be angles of the light.
One for Peter A - drop him a PM?
The Lockheed is pretty certainly French - rudder (rather than fin stripes) was pretty much French only, IIRC. Don't forget he wasn't far from places the French had pre-war colonies like ~uh~ Vietnam...
The SEAC painted Daks are interesting too. Pity you can't make out what I presume is the serial under the finflash on the one behind the group.
PS - You might want to number 'em to help the discussion.
Cheers
Spitfire. It's a PR or FR version with the camera hatch in the radio-compartment door. Retractable tailwheel (the doors are visible) and I think there's a guy riding on the wing, which gives the impression of nose art.
Guesswork - looks like it may be in PRU blue, but with a replacement camouflaged rudder - but that might just be angles of the light.
One for Peter A - drop him a PM?
The Lockheed is pretty certainly French - rudder (rather than fin stripes) was pretty much French only, IIRC. Don't forget he wasn't far from places the French had pre-war colonies like ~uh~ Vietnam...
The SEAC painted Daks are interesting too. Pity you can't make out what I presume is the serial under the finflash on the one behind the group.
PS - You might want to number 'em to help the discussion.
Cheers
Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:21 am
Great photos...
My thoughts are that the French scenes are probably Hanoi or Saigon or even Tourane...
The C-47s with the roundels are SEAC and I suspect one of the shots of the line up could be the original Kai Tak in Hong Kong.
One with the Spitfire is possibly Saigon also...no Spitfires operated in China but in the confusion after the Japanese surrender the RAF, with Spitfires, and the British Army arrived in Vietnam to keep order until the French arrived back.They even kept the Japanese armed to help keep order.
Appear to be mostly Chinese officials in the photos but the airfield where the Marsden matting could be anywhere coastal along the Vietnam, Hainan Island area.
Do you have any more?
My thoughts are that the French scenes are probably Hanoi or Saigon or even Tourane...
The C-47s with the roundels are SEAC and I suspect one of the shots of the line up could be the original Kai Tak in Hong Kong.
One with the Spitfire is possibly Saigon also...no Spitfires operated in China but in the confusion after the Japanese surrender the RAF, with Spitfires, and the British Army arrived in Vietnam to keep order until the French arrived back.They even kept the Japanese armed to help keep order.
Appear to be mostly Chinese officials in the photos but the airfield where the Marsden matting could be anywhere coastal along the Vietnam, Hainan Island area.
Do you have any more?
Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:08 am
Fine shots.
The Spitfire is a PR Mk XI although it may be carrying a borrowed rudder from a Mk VIII with camouflage.
Some of the locals have a Burmese look.
PR Unit 681 Squadron operated widely in SE Asia post WWII up to August 1946.
Spitfires EN679 and PA890 are both known to have carried the code letter 'B', the latter being the most likely candidate for your shot.
Incidentally PA908, in the USAAF Museum at Dayton, was 'E' with this unit.
I will look a little deeper.
PeterA
The Spitfire is a PR Mk XI although it may be carrying a borrowed rudder from a Mk VIII with camouflage.
Some of the locals have a Burmese look.
PR Unit 681 Squadron operated widely in SE Asia post WWII up to August 1946.
Spitfires EN679 and PA890 are both known to have carried the code letter 'B', the latter being the most likely candidate for your shot.
Incidentally PA908, in the USAAF Museum at Dayton, was 'E' with this unit.
I will look a little deeper.
PeterA
Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:21 am
PeterA wrote:The Spitfire is a PR Mk XI although it may be carrying a borrowed rudder from a Mk VIII with camouflage.
Yessss!!! Does small jig of vindication.
Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:43 am
I would imagine that the pictures in question were taken in what is now Vietnam as there are more pictures taken in downtown Saigon. So it would make sense.
The only picture with an inscription is the one with the Colonel and gentleman in the fadora (simply named Crowley) and stating that it was taken in China. It's possible since the ground under C-47 changes from picture to picture that they may have been taken at different airfeilds in China as they traveled along.
It's shame as don't have the names to go with the faces. As we go through the pictures, i 'm starting to suspect he may have kept a "War Diary" and would have logged all these places and people. Some pictures on the back simply say "See In Book". Maybe one day this too will turn up.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
The only picture with an inscription is the one with the Colonel and gentleman in the fadora (simply named Crowley) and stating that it was taken in China. It's possible since the ground under C-47 changes from picture to picture that they may have been taken at different airfeilds in China as they traveled along.
It's shame as don't have the names to go with the faces. As we go through the pictures, i 'm starting to suspect he may have kept a "War Diary" and would have logged all these places and people. Some pictures on the back simply say "See In Book". Maybe one day this too will turn up.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:47 am
Shay,
681 Squadron RAF operated a detachmnet of PR Spitfires out of Ton Son Nhut Airbase just outside Saigon during December 1945 - Jnauary 1946.
PeterA
Wiki says:-
Tan Son Nhat Airport was built by the French in the 1920s when the French Colonial government of Indochina constructed a small unpaved airport, known as Tan Son Nhat Airfield in the village of Tan Son Nhat to serve as Saigon's commercial airport. Flights to and from France, as well as within Southeast Asia were available prior to World War II. During World War II, the Imperial Japanese Army used Tan Son Nhat as a transport base. When Japan surrendered in August 1945 the French Air Force flew a contingent of 150 troops into Tan Son Nhat.
After World War II, Tan Son Nhat served domestic as well as international flights from Saigon. In 1952, the French Air Force moved the 312th Special Mission Squadron to TSN from Nha Trang Air Base, consisting of French Douglas C-47 Skytrains and Beechcraft Model 18s for carrying cargo and military passengers to support French forces.
681 Squadron RAF operated a detachmnet of PR Spitfires out of Ton Son Nhut Airbase just outside Saigon during December 1945 - Jnauary 1946.
PeterA
Wiki says:-
Tan Son Nhat Airport was built by the French in the 1920s when the French Colonial government of Indochina constructed a small unpaved airport, known as Tan Son Nhat Airfield in the village of Tan Son Nhat to serve as Saigon's commercial airport. Flights to and from France, as well as within Southeast Asia were available prior to World War II. During World War II, the Imperial Japanese Army used Tan Son Nhat as a transport base. When Japan surrendered in August 1945 the French Air Force flew a contingent of 150 troops into Tan Son Nhat.
After World War II, Tan Son Nhat served domestic as well as international flights from Saigon. In 1952, the French Air Force moved the 312th Special Mission Squadron to TSN from Nha Trang Air Base, consisting of French Douglas C-47 Skytrains and Beechcraft Model 18s for carrying cargo and military passengers to support French forces.
Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:41 am
681 Squadron RAF operated a detachmnet of PR Spitfires out of Ton Son Nhut Airbase just outside Saigon during December 1945 - Jnauary 1946.
As I mentioned above, ...this time frame would tie in with the 'winter' overcoats that the passengers, the American civilian and Col. Donald Winder in his winter uniform have in many of the photos that would have been taken in China as temperatures can get quite cool in those months.
Definitely some of the passengers are Burmese.
Could be completely wrong but have a gut feeling that the Lily is at Sanya on the south coast of Hainan Island. This was one of the most developed ex- Japanese bases as Hainan had been occupied before WWII and would make a logical stopover.
As Col. Winder served with III Amphibious Corps maybe he was on a 'fact finding' tour...Burma was to be the scene of a large amphibious landing before the Japanese surrender and there were various plans for landings along the South China Coast.
Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:34 pm
Steve Nelson wrote:Great pics, thanks for posting!
Don't know anything about the Spit, unfortunately, but the Ki-48 "Lily" in Chinese markings is interesting. What nationality is the Lockheed? I'm thinking French.
SN
I saw the Ki-48 and initially thought "Martin Maryland", but I don't think any were supplied to the Chinese. They do look similar, wonder if that was a coincidence?
interesting chunks of history there.
Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:41 pm
Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:50 pm
SaxMan wrote:I saw the Ki-48 and initially thought "Martin Maryland", but I don't think any were supplied to the Chinese. They do look similar, wonder if that was a coincidence?
Hmmm, not that similar, IMHO - although now you mention it I can kinda see it... - more to do with being contemporary designs, with the fashions for gun positions, mid wing, twin engine etc. The Maryland looks a lot more 'stretched' than the stubbier taller 'Lily'.
Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:53 pm
YA!!! GO WIX GO!
Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:40 pm
One with the Spitfire is possibly Saigon also...no Spitfires operated in China but in the confusion after the Japanese surrender the RAF, with Spitfires, and the British Army arrived in Vietnam to keep order until the French arrived back.They even kept the Japanese armed to help keep order.
Not necessarily, could have been one on a cross country flight from Burma. Impossible to speculate.
As for the model, it looks like a mk.8.