TOUGH FOR ME TO WRITE

[Bill Greenwood]

This is a little tough for me to write, especially on Christmas Eve. But I don't want to disappear without a word.
I have just gotten a threat from the moderator to "can" me. In some ways I don't care that much, since I really do spend too much time on WIX, and there are a lot of guys who just see life so differently.
But on the other hand, there are some nice folks on WIX, some good laughs, I have learned a lot of things, and some folks have said they enjoy some of the things I write. I've tried to share what I know about warbirds and flying. I have tried to do it with honesty and manners, without turning my back on principles that I think are important.

I frequently don't agree with other views on WIX. It is no secret that I like the bird part, better than the war part. When I see those young men and women coming back with no legs, I feel sick, not proud. But I don't think I have ever tried to restrict someone else's right to state their view. I believe that is not only fair and good manners, but a fundamental of democracy.

Just as I have learned to at least see the side of others, I REALLY think many on WIX need to be open minded and take at least a look at the other side. Our country has some severe problems, I am sure that I am not the only one on WIX who has lost a lot of value over the last years, not even counting the non economic issues.

Does anyone use another site that they have found with the good points of WIX? I haven't seen one. Thanks, Bill

[camshaw]

I agree, this country is ripe with corruption and ripe for destruction...and it will probably be from within. As the morals of our families fall apart and our leaders search for personal gain, then the week followers of this nation will vote in those that promise them more than the other canidate. You have a right to speak your opinion,its people who stand up and do so that help to change others and pry them out of their comfort zones of laziness. Most moderators are mini hitlers anyways!...ha ha ha....

[RMAllnutt]

Hi Bill,
I honestly don't know why anyone would do this to you. Yes, sometimes things have been a little awkward on some of the threads, but I've never seen you be abusive, or downright rude, which I thought was the only reason someone might be blacklisted, and even then, only when done repeatedly by the offender. I usually enjoy reading your posts very much to be honest, and would be very sorry to see you go, especially this way. You usually have a good natured sense of humor in your digs when they come, and I don't see the harm in that either. Perhaps the moderator was just having a bad day. I sure hope so.

Merry Christmas,
Richard

[mustangdriver]

I for one am one of the people that don't always see eye to eye with Bill. That being said, there alot of people that I don't see eye to eye with, but that doesn't mean that I don't like them. This comes from spending time with him in person, not just on a forum. When I showed up at the WIX party this year, Bill was among the first people to great me as I was one of his old friends. When I wanted some warbird parts for my gameroom, it was Bill that surprised me with a main tire to a Spitfire on my porch. While I don't always agree with his stand on politics, they are still views of someone that has the right to speak. We honor those men and women that fought for that right here. How are we honoring them if we kick someone out for speaking their mind? This is not a political forum. Many need to be reminded that from time to time including Bill, but I think WIX is in trouble if we jsut start kicking people out. The warbird world and aviation world is too small to exclude poeple. Just my two cents, take it for what it is worth.

[Dan K]

Hi Bill,
I honestly don't know why anyone would do this to you. Yes, sometimes things have been a little awkward on some of the threads, but I've never seen you be abusive, or downright rude, which I thought was the only reason someone might be blacklisted, and even then, only when done repeatedly by the offender. I usually enjoy reading your posts very much to be honest, and would be very sorry to see you go, especially this way. You usually have a good natured sense of humor in your digs when they come, and I don't see the harm in that either. Perhaps the moderator was just having a bad day. I sure hope so.

Merry Christmas,
Richard

Bill, I could not agree more with Richard's comments. Sure hope you stick around.

What is the criteria to become a moderator ??

Bill I can't understand WHY an owner and contributer to this great forum can be BAN. I for one think there needs to be a open discussion on moderator abuses. Sure the personal attacks need to be stopped but we still have opinions. I thought Scott had the only right to BAN anyone.
Which one of our fine moderators was it OR is that a secret.

Steve

[michaelharadon]

Merry Christmas...can the moderator. Bill goes far to make WIX worth reading. Great posts on this thread so far.MOD EDIT

Last edited by michaelharadon on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[Steve Nelson]

I for one would be very sorry to see you go, Bill. I tend to be pretty middle of the road politically, and like to hear both sides of the issues. I don't mind people expressing opinions or viewpoints, as long as it doesn't get personal or insulting..and I don't think I've seen you cross that line.

SN

[JOHN MILLER]

I too enjoy all the BIRD talk. I also have been upset about how someone was ranting or belittling someone. But don't ban a person for being human. I have read and learned more things than I can count about warbirds and pilots and A&P's. but to ban someone like Bill is wrong, yes sometimes it gets out of hand and for me I only saw one person that really deserved to be banned. Don't loose this source of experience and wisdom because someone whined because something was said. WIX is about learning.
JOHN

[muddyboots]

Bill, I guess the issue is that Scott is trying to avoid turning WIX into a bloody bucket. You know, the bar outside of every military base where you go to get VD, and a broken nose, and end up in the lockup for the night...And it certainly does seem like there are lots of threads that end up brawls.

I DO agree with you, but I think for otehr reasons...
I'm not sure that you can just apply a blanket ban on the free expression of thought and judgment and opinion. Unfortunately, much of what we discuss is political. As Von Clausewitz said "Theory becomes infinitely more difficult as soon as it touches the realm of moral values," It isn't that I believe that freedom of expression in a website is a right. It's just that you can't have a full discussion of any war related subject without risking a drift into a political discussion over WHY IT HAPPENED. And if the insults can be weeded out, you often find an interesting and healthy thing happening.

I'm in a discussion right now in OT about using salt on the roads up north. The discussion was going just fine until (from my perspective) it was called a liberal conspiracy. At that point the discussion changed from an interesting discussion of the weather this year and how places are dealing with it, to another attack on science by calling it a liberal conspiracy. In other words, it's become a political argument. And of course there are the nasty comments about global warming by people who have no idea what global warming is or what the theories say it does, and who are just repeating things they heard an under educated, biased commentator say on what he claims is a new show, but is actually an entertainment show. And I am not just saying that about conservatives. If you look at any of the liberal commentators they are doing exactly the same thing about every subject they discuss. Again, it isn't the content, it is the delivery.

In other words, it is the baiting and flaming that needs to be hammered out, not the politics. And it doesn't need to be deleted or locked. The people doing it need to be warned, and then suspended, and then banned, if they cannot refrain from it. I can name on one hand the number of people who actually do this on a regular basis. As usual, in any community the number of actual people breaking the rules is only about 5% or less of the population. Only they are causing 95% of the trouble. Get rid of them and the issues go away. The police arrest them. websites ban them.

For now, Bill, until we come up with a fair and balanced way to deal with the problems this board is developing, I would suggest you simply refrain from discussing anything but airplanes, hot women standing next to them, and whether Chuck Yeager is really as so mean he would steal candy from a baby...And leave the subjects you know are going to draw fire for other boards...

There are a number of political boards out there, you might want to try posting there about these things. Your style of delivery and calm demeanor would be a welcome addition, I assure you. But doing it here, in a crowd of military conservatives and dirty under the nails mechanics, is just asking from trouble.

[L. Thompson]

Bill,

I don't think I've ever posted in any of the threads that got ugly, or where your views and others were clashing. I've read most of them, however. Sometimes I was in your camp and sometimes not. I just stayed out of it on this message board.

I agree with comments above and I don't have the answers most want to hear to our country's problems. I save them for other forums.

I doubt any pure warbird discussion only forums are possible for any duration, just because of human nature to throw in opinions that should be considered, and ask tough questions that need to be answered.

Moderators, let him stay. Bill don't leave.

Lowell Thompson
Kellogg, Idaho

[b29flteng]

Bill is about the only one who gets my blood flowing, don't can him!!!!

[peter]

I can't understand why you would be threatened like that Bill. I echo Richards sentiments and please reconsider and stay with the forum?

[Ztex]

FIRST
This thread is getting rather ugly.

Let's tone down the rhetoric just a bit.


Second,

I have no desire for Bill to leave this forum. His insight to the Spitfire is invaluable and is some of the best of this forum. Warbirds is what we are about and flying a Spitfire is as much Warbird involvement as one can get.


I did not threaten to can Bill Greenwood.
I have had many conversations with Bill in Private Messages and none of them contained a threat to ban him from the forum.

I have met Bill in person and found him to be a very nice guy.
I disagree with him politically that's all.

I do not have the power to ban anyone.

Scott is the only person to make that call. I have not asked for anyone to be banned.

There are rules in this forum.
Rules of decorum and boundaries to where our conversations can go. these rules were set by the owner of the site.

All of this gnashing of teeth comes from the fact that there are some here that refuse to play by those rules and then get mad when it is pointed out to them. There are wide variations to the interpratations of those rules.

As a moderator I try to be fair and step lightly. I volunteered for the job. I do it for the forum and not for any sort of glory or favor. It's a avocation. I'm not married to the job.



Here is the latest word from Scott. Posted here on December 10, 2008

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=254270#254270

Alright everybody. This type of stuff is really getting old. This forum is about Warbirds, the meaning of which for our purposes includes pretty much any military aircraft. And that's what this forum should remain focused on. However, we are a community of individuals with different tastes and sensibilities and often times those conflict. The moderators and myself strive to maintain a balance but it becomes difficult when people veer off on some non warbird related tangent. For that I created the off-topic section. However, because it doesn't get viewed as much as the more popular sections do it is not used as much and people feel the need to post in the more active sections. This is annoying as well essentially telling me to go F myself, which of course I don't take kindly too.
People who do these sorts of behaviors and then get their threads banned always cry censorship or oppression of freedom of speech when its something they agree with and say its a good call when they disagree with something.

I have my own opinions on a lot of these topics but don't express them here. Why? BECAUSE THIS ISN'T THE PLACE. We should talk about warbirds, and aviation, and aircraft, and military history, and we can even talk about tanks and ships if you want. But if it involves politics, politicians, laws (that don't concern aviation), religion, and any other hot button topics then it will be gone if I see it. This is your only warning. If the mods lock a thread they do so with my authority, they will lock it down and PM with the URL and I will review it. In only one instance have I ever overruled a mod's lock down of a thread.

Let's all get along and respect each other, nobody wants to be the ahole at the party and I don't want to have to be the bouncer.

[Randy Haskin]

People should learn to be much less thin-skinned.

Although I've disagreed with Bill on several subjects....and I've felt occasionally (rarely, to be fair) that Bill has made some poor word choices to express his feelings (like implying that I intentionally killed civilians in Afghanistan)...I have never taken any of it with any more credence than it is: words on an internet forum.

Fact of the matter is that we live in a world with many issues and many different views on these issues. These differing views -- and the freedom to express them -- is exactly what makes the US great (apologies to my non-American friends on WIX, but I'm an American and so is Bill). I don't hold my personal views in such high regard that I can't stomach someone expressing an alternate view. It's incredibly arrogant and pompous to think that "your" views (or mine) are perfect and beyond reproach. It's the differing viewpoints that make us of value to each other -- otherwise we'd all just be Jango Fett clones.

So, in this spirit, I've enjoyed having Bill on this board. Most importantly for WIX is the fact that he's a warbird owner and pilot. He's contributed plenty to the discussion now and certainly will in the future.

Play nice, y'all...but there's really no reason to ban anyone at this point. That sentiment goes for anyone on here...Hellcat, or Rob Rohr back on the day, or any of the numerous drive-by posters....whomever the disliked poster of the week is. Everyone just toughen up a little, don't take everything so darn seriously and don't take written exchanges on an internet forum personally.

Last edited by Randy Haskin on Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.