Takeoff in Tailwheel Airplanes, and the Corsair Accident

[Bill Greenwood]

I am sorry to see that the topic on the Corsair accident has been closed(locked) on WIX. I believe there are usually things to learn from the analysis and discussion of an accident.

The first point I'd like to make is the safest procedure or at least a safer procedure is when taking off in a group of tailwheel planes like fighters or T-6s, Wait Until The Previous Plane Has FULLY LIFTED OFF Before Starting To Roll. DON'T Go When Just The Tailwheel Is Up. Now, how do you know when he lifts off? You angle your plane across the runway so you can see out the sides and aren't blocked by the nose.

This method, that of seeing the plane before you fully lift off the runway before you start down the runway is the safer way, and it is this way that I was taught 25 years ago when I came into warbirds. Howard and other CAF pilots were mainly the people who showed me the procedures.

One change that occurred over the years, was the growth of large formation groups like T-34, T-28, T-6, and some of the emphasis changed from safety with patience, into trying to rush large number of planes off quickly. People began to think of short cutting the wait so they could get in the air to join the formation quicker or get on with the airshow. It was sort of a subtle thing, not a definitive rule change, but in my opinion it led to less emphasis on safety. You can be more agressive in a T-34 that has fabulous vision over the nose, fairly low power and weight, and a stall speed of 48 knots VSO. A fighter is not the same thing.

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:53 pm, edited 8 times in total.

[n5151ts]

...if you can't see they guy in front of you ...you don't have any idea whats going on...so you wait till you can see him. oh and ALWAYS be the LAST guy in the formation!

[Fleet16b]

I agree with Bill 100%.
Our people do not commence t/off until the a/c in front is airbourne and can be fully seen over the nose of our airplane.
This ensures that the a/c in front is completely clear of the runway surface and clears and wingtip vortice issues.

[Dudley Henriques]

I am sorry to see that the topic on the Corsair accident has been closed(locked) on WIX. I believe there are usually things to learn from the analysis and discussion of an accident.

The first point I'd like to make is the safest procedure or at least safer procedure is when taking off in a group of tailwheel planes like fighters or T-6s, Wait Until The Previous Plane Has FULLY LIFTED OFF Before Starting To Roll. DON'T Go When Just The Tailwheel Is Up.
This method, that of seeing the plane before you fully lift off the runway before starting down the runway is the safer way, and it is this way that I was taught 25 years ago when I came into warbirds. Howard and other CAF pilots were mainly the people who showed me the procedures.
One change that occurred over the years, was the growth of large formation groups like T-34, T-28, T-6, and some of the emphasis changed from safety with patience to trying to rush large number of planes off quickly. You can do a lot in a T-34 that has fabulous vision over the nose, fairly low power and a stall speed of 48 knots VSO. A fighter is not the same thing.

I would add my voice to Bill's on this.

Tailwheel fighters are basically blind in an angular cone extending (depending on type of course) about 20 to 25 degrees on either side of the windshield with the pilot's head as the apex of this equilateral triangle.
Section and most assuredly flight take offs can be extremely dangerous in these airplanes during the period defining power up by the wingmen and when the noses of the wingmen come down.

There are several areas of danger associated with formation takeoffs in tailwheel fighters. Visual cue as stated is of course of primary concern.
As well, there is the insidious and seldom mentioned factor involved with being a number 2 or deeper in a section or flight takeoff that involves the psychological urge and natural instinct for the wing position pilots beginning the roll to FORCE DOWN the noses of their aircraft earlier than they would ordinarily to regain visual cue on the aircraft obliquely in front of them.

If this occurs, and if often does in these situations, it places the aircraft in the worst possible condition for both yaw and roll excursion as torque acts on the aircraft in ROLL, the downward movement of the prop disk in pitch causes precession, and P Factor is rising on the prop until the nose reaches coincidence with the relative wind.

Formation takeoffs in tailwheel fighters are a subject that should be getting MUCH more attention than it has in the past.

[Dan K]

Gentlemen, I don't think you're going to get an argument from anyone about waiting until the main gear of the preceding aircraft have left the runway to begin ones takeoff roll.

I think the point being made from the previous thread was waiting AT LEAST until the tail had left the runway...the key being VISUAL VERIFICATION.

Mods: Please don't lock. Too much good info.

[Trey Carroll]

I have learned to release my brakes when I see air under the tires of the aircraft on a roll. It's not hard to cock your airplane to the side to look down the runway either, basic stuff I say.

[garbs]

Boy, this thread brings back bad memories. I watched it happen through a 400 mm lens. I still remember the hair standing up on the back of my neck - I was looking at Howard & the other Bearcat (Tom Wood?) sitting at the customary 45-degree run-up/hold position when I heard multiple R-2800's going to take off power. I could clearly see Howard's prop ticking over at idle and there were no other planes in my field of view.

I can only guess why the second flight thought they were cleared - all I can say is that Jim Read did a hell of a job keeping the rubber side of his Corsair pointed down. (Corrected 10/21)

The last thing I thought of at the time was taking photos of it all but the following year a guy came to WB registration with a pretty amazing series of pictures. He had the lead Corsair framed and in focus at about 3-second intervals, from 100 yards or so before impact all the way through where it came to rest. He only spoke Spanish but I speak it just well enough to gunderstand that he wanted EAA to buy them. I handed him off to Peter Moll (I think) - I wonder what ever became of those.