P-38 roll, a bit low.

[mike furline]

This pic is from the Warren M. Bodie book, The Lockheed P-38 Lightning.

Caption reads,

"Those "Photo Joes" were pretty crazy, but it helped to be that way. An F-5E, returning from a very successful mission, performed a "victory" roll at this ridiculously low altitude, and it was recorded by an AAF photographer."

When I show this picture to people, the non-pilots say "ok so" and pilots always seem to say "HOLY poo poo".



Regards,
Mike

Very interesting photo, but I would take a guess that there just might have been a big ball of fire seconds after this photo was taken ... Hope I'm wrong ... again!!!!! ....

[The Inspector]

I don't know about any ball of fire seconds later, but they must have hoisted that boy up on the wing with a crane! Thats either a huge pair or a very tiny brain......

[MX304]

Which direction is he rolling I wonder?

I don't know, but the angle of attack just seems too violent for recovery. Either way this machine is turning, it just seems too low and the angle in the photo looks like it's not much of an upward angle. I'm sure the Scholars here on WIX can offer a better source of formula and example that would result in this particular P-38 recovering from this angle and altitude.

I'm interested in a robust debate here. This could be fun and interesting.

PS, do we know the outcome of this photo?

Mark

[John Dupre]

I would say that the relative danger this pilot is in depends on the type of roll he is doing. If it is a barrel role, rolling around a point parallel to the line of flight then he is probably crashing. If it is an aileron roll, a roll around the aircrafts own longitudinal axis then I think it depends on how fast his roll rate is.

Another possibility is that he is doing what the Germans called the "Galland Roll" after Adolf Galland the famous ace and leader. Galland would come in on the deck and roll his Messerschmitt up on one wing tip and then over till he was inverted then roll from inverted to upright in the same manner. The line of flight of the aircraft would shift so that when he was finally upright he was two wingspans away from the line of flight where he started.

The last time that I know of Galland performing that maneuver was at Tablada, Spain during the filming of Battle of Britain, Galland was flying a two seat Hispano Buchon with a Spanish Air Force veteran of WW2.

[Chicoartist]

There's a story related in 1000 Destroyed, I believe, about a 4th FG pilot who became a POW and one day a German ace put on an impromptu 'show' for the enemy POW camp - one pass was upside down at about 5' above the deck. The 4th pilot remarked that he doubted that even Kidd Hofer, who once rolled his aircraft above the 334th FS dispersal with major battle damage to the rudder, to the awe of those present, would try that one ...

One thing you gotta remember about some of these guys back then, which I know us history geeks know from our studies ... especially with many of the WWII German fighter pilots who survived any length of time, is that not only were they young and 'bulletproof', but many of them flew fighters daily for years, much of it in combat situations, and there's a 'touch' that comes from that that enables low rolls, flying upside down in an Fw 190 at less than 10 feet, etc., etc. Of course, the Darwin Principle applies as well ... anybody can try something once!

When I was a civilian CFI back in the day I flew a nice Grumman Cheetah a lot, and it rolled nicely at altitude. I got pretty good at it for an amateur acro pilot, even got good at aileron rolls with little loss of altitude. One day I was doing some high-speed passes over our local runway (uncontrolled field), and the airplane was handling very well on a cool day. I'd do nice pull-outs at the end of each pass for my pals in the hangar I could see watching. A little audience was gathering, and the thought occured to me that maybe I could roll it at the end of a pass. Heck, I'd done it many times at altitude. Since I am typing this, I obviously exercised my rarely-used good judgement and wisely came to the conclusion that God had further and different plans for me after this particular flight ... my "Snort" or young Luftwaffe or P-38 ace imitation would have to wait for another time - like never.

Wade

[kenlyco]

I am not a pilot but is it possible for him to push forward on the stick when he is inverted ?

[RyanShort1]

I am not a pilot but is it possible for him to push forward on the stick when he is inverted ?

Yes... I would think a lot about whether or not this ended successfully would have to do with the aircraft's speed, AOA, and "touch" of the pilot.

Ryan

There's a story related in 1000 Destroyed, I believe, about a 4th FG pilot who became a POW and one day a German ace put on an impromptu 'show' for the enemy POW camp - one pass was upside down at about 5' above the deck. The 4th pilot remarked that he doubted that even Kidd Hofer, who once rolled his aircraft above the 334th FS dispersal with major battle damage to the rudder, to the awe of those present, would try that one ...

One thing you gotta remember about some of these guys back then, which I know us history geeks know from our studies ... especially with many of the WWII German fighter pilots who survived any length of time, is that not only were they young and 'bulletproof', but many of them flew fighters daily for years, much of it in combat situations, and there's a 'touch' that comes from that that enables low rolls, flying upside down in an Fw 190 at less than 10 feet, etc., etc. Of course, the Darwin Principle applies as well ... anybody can try something once!

When I was a civilian CFI back in the day I flew a nice Grumman Cheetah a lot, and it rolled nicely at altitude. I got pretty good at it for an amateur acro pilot, even got good at aileron rolls with little loss of altitude. One day I was doing some high-speed passes over our local runway (uncontrolled field), and the airplane was handling very well on a cool day. I'd do nice pull-outs at the end of each pass for my pals in the hangar I could see watching. A little audience was gathering, and the thought occured to me that maybe I could roll it at the end of a pass. Heck, I'd done it many times at altitude. Since I am typing this, I obviously exercised my rarely-used good judgement and wisely came to the conclusion that God had further and different plans for me after this particular flight ... my "Snort" or young Luftwaffe or P-38 ace imitation would have to wait for another time - like never.

Wade

I have a similar story in Isla Vista CA when I was in school at UCSB. I was a student pilot flying a 172 and I asked SBA to fly below 500 feet along the clifts along the ocean. I flew by my school condo which was hanging over the clifts and had a few of my friends throw change at me. I felt every penny. I thought I was fish bait. I was WAY too low for a student pilot. But I did get a hot chick later that night for being a figher jock ... hahaha ... right!!!!

[ALU]

The P38 seems to be rolling by the left, I am not sure but I think I can see some deflection down on the right aileron. So I imagine the pilot was finishing his roll.
Despite of this, He seems to be too low and in a bad nose down attitude to recover safely.
It reminds me a bad souvenir: when TFC P38 crashed after its second aileron roll at Duxford (I guess it was in 1996). The pilot entered into the 2nd roll without rising the nose and with a continuous rate of roll.
Then, the lightning begans to enter in a nose down attitude and regarding of this, was in late in its roll.
The Pilot applied full power on right engine and unfortunately crashed when finishing is roll in a big ball of fire.
As I remember the accident might have been produced by a aileron servo lock, to the left.
Due to the fact that my English is very poor, I think it will be better to join a video.
Despite I have never flew a lightning, my experience told me to be very caution with heavy airplanes, especially those with low rate of roll, and to avoid to engage them in nose down attitude very close from the ground.

Regarding the first picture, in French Navy we had something to describe this:
Too low, too slow; too stupid!

[Swiss Mustangs]

It reminds me a bad souvenir: when TFC P38 crashed after its second aileron roll at Duxford (I guess it was in 1996). The pilot entered into the 2nd roll without rising the nose and with a continuous rate of roll.

when I saw the first photo, I had exactly the same 'deja-vu' experience re. that horrible crash at Duxford....

Martin

[bipe215]

If he's rolling to his right, he's got to be getting a whole bunch of foward stick right now. If he's rolling left, he's adding a bunch of top rudder.
Can't be a barrell roll, unless he started it in a canyon we can't see. Most likely a slow roll, or an aileron roll with more of a slow roll recovery.
One of those things where he's great if he's makes it, or an idiot if he doesn't.

Steve G

[Louis Emond]

Hi all, my two bits; seems to me the ground crew are confident the pilot is in control. They probably have seen this kind of flying many times before.

[Randy Haskin]

I am not a pilot but is it possible for him to push forward on the stick when he is inverted ?

Nope!

There's no stick in a P-38.