HA-1112-M1L-Buchon's

Noticed the Buchon in the "A soggy day ... Duxford thread"

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=24250

... Even though a few look quite nice painted as Luftwaffe 109's ... I wouldn't mind seeing one flying painted in original Spanish markings. I know we've killed a dead horse with the "accurate" paint schemes in the past, but I just cannot understand why anyone who owns a warbird would not want to have an "accurate" paint job. And yes, I get the "owner can do what he wants" thing. What do you think? do you like flyable HA-1112's in WW2 Luftwaffe markings with a 3-bladed prop or would you rather see them in Spanish markings with the original 4-bladed prop? I'd love to see one flying in original Spanish markings.

Wiki states that the M1L has a 1600 hp RR-merlin with a four-bladed prop. Does anyone know what the flyable examples have today? Same engines with a three bladed prop? Any HA-1112-K1L's flying?

HA-1112-K1L
Wing span: 9,92 m (32 ft, 6 inches)
Length: 8.49 m (26 ft, 3 inches)
Height: 2.60 m (8 ft, 6 inches)
Wing surface: 16 m² (172 square ft)
Wing load: 200 kg/m2 (41 lb/square ft)
Empty weight: 2,475 kg (5456 lb)
Maximum weight: 3,200 kg (7054 lb)
Engine: 1,300 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Z-17 V12; three-bladed Hamilton propeller
Maximum speed: 600 Km/h (324 knots)
Cruise speed: 400 km/h (216 knots)
Service ceiling: 9800 m (32,150 ft)
Range: 690 km (373 NM) without external fuel containers
Crew: 1 man
Armament: two 20 mm Hispano-Suiza 404/408 cannons; two 80 mm, eight rocket Pilatus devices

HA-1112-M1L
Wing span: 9.92 m (32 ft, 6 inches)
Length: 9.13 m (30 ft)
Height: 2.60 m (8 ft, 6 inches)
Wing surface: 16 m² (172 square ft)
Wing load: 206 kg/m² (42.2 lb/square ft)
Empty weight: 2,666 kg (5877 lb)
Maximum weight: 3,330 kg (7341 lb)
Engine: 1,600 hp [Rolls-Royce Merlin]] 500/45 V12, a four-bladed Rotol propeller
Maximum speed: 665 Km/h (360 knots)
Service ceiling: 10,200 m (33,500 ft)
Range: 765 km (415 NM) without external fuel containers
Crew: 1 man
Armament: two 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS.404/408 cannons; and two 80 mm, eight rocket Oerlikon devices

[bdk]

How about this one at the Air Zoo?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Spain--- ... 1068324/M/

Too bad it doesn't fly.

Yes indeed, that example looks great, wonder how accurate that purple really is? ... haha

[chippie51]

It would sure be nice to see a Buchon in it's original national markings, but ultimately owners understandably wish to make their aeroplanes marketable on the airshow circuit and this, in the case of a Buchon is best done as worthy foe for a Spit or P-51. I can understand this and have to confess that if I were in their situation I'd probably be doing exactly the same.

As for props, the original Buchon unit was a Rotol hub, effectively the same prop unit a Spit 9 etc has but with metal blades rather than wood. I believe the current trend is to use Ham Standard 23E50 units, again something I can completely understand given the huge difference in cost!

G

[blurrkup]

I believe all the flying Buchons, that are classed as Buchons, have Merlin engines powering them. Some examples have been converted to use original Daimler-Benz engines to make them as close to resembling Bf-109Gs. The three examples in Germany owned by the Messerschmitt foundation I believe were all originally Buchons. (please correct if wrong)

[Mark V]

Yes indeed, that example looks great, wonder how accurate that purple really is? ... haha

Its blue in reality - but the camera/lighting does make it look purple in that shot

[Augsburgeagle]

Personally, and I know alot of people won't agree with this, I don't understand why any warbirds are put in markings that aren't correct for them, even if they were an aircraft that never made it into service etc. I still think that it looks best for them to have their orignal markings rather than pretending to be an aircraft they are not; it takes away from the authenticity of the aircraft rather than adding to it.
Now if an aircrafts history is unknown then respresentative markings are fine but I still wouldn't like it to pretend to be a famous aircraft for example. As for the Buchons I'm not a fan of the pretend schemes for them, it confuses joe public and has no historical relevance. Much better to see Buchons with the correct paint on rather than some fake luftwaffe scheme.

[Obergrafeter]

Would Israely colors be correct for a Buchon?

Would Israely colors be correct for a Buchon?

You mean Israeli? ... Sure, if they wore them, which I actually believe a few did. Why not, now that would have old Adolf turn in his grave, if he has one ... lolol

Personally, and I know alot of people won't agree with this, I don't understand why any warbirds are put in markings that aren't correct for them, even if they were an aircraft that never made it into service etc. I still think that it looks best for them to have their orignal markings rather than pretending to be an aircraft they are not; it takes away from the authenticity of the aircraft rather than adding to it.
Now if an aircrafts history is unknown then respresentative markings are fine but I still wouldn't like it to pretend to be a famous aircraft for example. As for the Buchons I'm not a fan of the pretend schemes for them, it confuses joe public and has no historical relevance. Much better to see Buchons with the correct paint on rather than some fake luftwaffe scheme.

I couldn't agree more, I'm just not a fan of these luftwaffe imposters .... flame away ...

[Bradburger]

Personally, and I know alot of people won't agree with this, I don't understand why any warbirds are put in markings that aren't correct for them, even if they were an aircraft that never made it into service etc. I still think that it looks best for them to have their orignal markings rather than pretending to be an aircraft they are not; it takes away from the authenticity of the aircraft rather than adding to it.
Now if an aircrafts history is unknown then respresentative markings are fine but I still wouldn't like it to pretend to be a famous aircraft for example. As for the Buchons I'm not a fan of the pretend schemes for them, it confuses joe public and has no historical relevance. Much better to see Buchons with the correct paint on rather than some fake luftwaffe scheme.

Some good points, most of which I agree with, although the issue of Luftwaffe schemes having no historical relevence on Buchons could be open to debate!

The fact that they were (as I understand) really G-2 airframes shipped to Spain without engines, and therefore genuine 109 airframes with historical links to the types Luftwaffe history & heritage, then you could argue it's ok to do so.

And also the fact that when in use by the Spanish Air Force, many took part in the BoB film dressed as 109E's. As most, if not all of today's surviving examples took part in that film, I think if an owner decided to paint their machine in the colours it wore whilst taking part in it (and even configured it like it was in the film too), then that is fair game also.

But if you have a Buchon with a Daimler-Benz fitted, what scheme should that be painted in?

I too would like to see a Buchon painted and configured as it would have been in Spanish AF service, although I doubt this will happen, as you always need someone to play the bad guy at an airshow!

Cheers

Paul

[Augsburgeagle]

Interesting points but, as far as I know only a few actual German airframes were sent to Spain the majority were licence built, I think Hans Ditte claimed that his machine was one of the German airframed Buchons but that is only something I heard.
As to wether a Buchon re-engineered to a 109 should wear a historical german scheme is a bit different. I am bit biased when it comes to buchons as 109's, lets face the facts here the last chance we had to see a real 109 flying as original as it gets was Black 6 and those days are gone. I dont have a problem with using a wreck and a Buchon to create a 109, nearly all the components required to create a 109 internally are still avaliable, if not expensive, and if you do it as accurately as possible and re-create a Buchon airframe to 109 standard using all WW2 german components then in my eyes you no longer have a buchon but a 109 and it would be more correct to use the german identity.

[DaveM2]

Israel used Avias not Buchons.

25 original German airframes went to Spain, plus a few that landed and were interned. None are known to have survived, despite every other Buchon owner saying they happen to have one of the original 25

Only one airframe was found to have some German manufacturing stamps when all Buchons were inspected over the years, but it is thought these were a few parts only, and not related to the airframe as a whole.

Dittes aircraft started life as a Spanish built Buchon, but has G-10 parts.

On the other hand the surviving Avia in Israel is German built.

Dave

[k5083]

Buchons that have been displayed in correct colors over the years include not only Kalamazoo's, but the USAFM's before it was converted into a pseudo 109G, then subsequently replaced by a real 109, and the Canadian national museum's before it was replaced by a real 109. The latter two were both in silver with blue undersides. As might be expected, there are also two 1112 -- one K1L and one M1L -- displayed in Spanish colors at the Museo Del Aire in Madrid.

I too would like to see one operating in its real colors. Not only for accuracy's sake but because both the blue and silver schemes were quite sharp and look good on the airplane.

August

[Augsburgeagle]

you could always go the EADS route with this scheme!

[Michel Lemieux]

The Canadian example ( currently in storage ) always fasinated me.

Yup, nice looking for sure