Airshow safety thoughts - Response to Gary A's comment
Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:13 pm
Rather than to continue hijacking the thread on Oshkosh 'parade' (Here: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=23574 I thought I'd pull out one of Gary Austin's comments for response here.
I think Gary makes some pertinent comments about (too many) airshow organisers attitude. Before I go on, some disclaimers - I'm not a pilot or organiser, just a journalist. I'm not commenting on Reno or the CAF show (not been - yet) or Osh (don't know enough about it) but I do have an personal insight in that I've chatted to and interviewed numerous people involved with putting on shows around the world - and I'm good at listening to what they aren't telling me as well...
In almost every country, at each venue I've looked at, the norm seems to be that 'they' (other shows, organisers and countries) have 'lots' of accidents and don't do it as well as 'we' do here. 'We' can find excuses, it seems from the occasional 'lapse' from safe flying, while 'they' shouldn't be allowed out without training wheels.
However I've rarely seen a venue which could not do more (sensible) work to improve safety while putting on a better show, yet despite the basics of free market competition, it's rare that the organisers are really keen to look at or steal good ideas from other venues or countries.
Why is that? IMHO, because we are all able to all-to-easily believe we are doing a good-enough job and often aren't humble enough to grab other people's good ideas, or learn properly from their (as well as our own) mistakes.
Every airshow accident and incident has lessons for most venues, even if it's just a tick in the box that we've got that risk covered; yet too quickly we can say - 'what else do you expect from x?' which is a cop-out.
If you are running a show, could you honestly say this isn't you?
Thoughts? (Keep it constructive, please - it could be useful...)
retroaviation wrote:And look, I'm NOT just getting on other airshow's and airbosses' cases. We can certainly make some improvements here in Midland, and we are working on it. The point is that ALL of these bigger airshows could use some "tweaking" in the operational part of them. Saying, "we've done it this way for years" is a crappy attitude and needs to change.
So, there you have it. You wanted my opinion, there it is. I reckon folks can start flaming me now, but I'm pretty firm on my beliefs on this issue. Do I have all the answers? Heck no! But I'm trying to make a difference.
Body armor on, ducking for cover.
Gary
I think Gary makes some pertinent comments about (too many) airshow organisers attitude. Before I go on, some disclaimers - I'm not a pilot or organiser, just a journalist. I'm not commenting on Reno or the CAF show (not been - yet) or Osh (don't know enough about it) but I do have an personal insight in that I've chatted to and interviewed numerous people involved with putting on shows around the world - and I'm good at listening to what they aren't telling me as well...
In almost every country, at each venue I've looked at, the norm seems to be that 'they' (other shows, organisers and countries) have 'lots' of accidents and don't do it as well as 'we' do here. 'We' can find excuses, it seems from the occasional 'lapse' from safe flying, while 'they' shouldn't be allowed out without training wheels.
However I've rarely seen a venue which could not do more (sensible) work to improve safety while putting on a better show, yet despite the basics of free market competition, it's rare that the organisers are really keen to look at or steal good ideas from other venues or countries.
Why is that? IMHO, because we are all able to all-to-easily believe we are doing a good-enough job and often aren't humble enough to grab other people's good ideas, or learn properly from their (as well as our own) mistakes.
Every airshow accident and incident has lessons for most venues, even if it's just a tick in the box that we've got that risk covered; yet too quickly we can say - 'what else do you expect from x?' which is a cop-out.
If you are running a show, could you honestly say this isn't you?
Thoughts? (Keep it constructive, please - it could be useful...)
Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:26 pm
I think the bigger shows that pay for professional Airbosses seem to do pretty good. The airshows themselves don't have alot to do with what happens in the air. it's up to the airboss. It makes a difference who performs in the warbird segments, as that's when many aircraft are in the air at the same time. Warbird pilots that are contracted to do airshows, generally do many a year. I do 10-15 each year, I have done as many as 20 something. I've been doing it for more than 25 years. We all get to know each other and fly together at many shows each year. Where the problem comes, is the owner who just shows up on his own to fly with us. We are always glad to work with new guys, but some aren't easy to work with. That's where Oshkosh and Sun -n-fun come into play. no one is paid to operate in the Warbird section. Any one can just sign up and fly. you will notice that the experianced warbird operators tend to not fly in these shows. I'm one of them. I do fly a day or two, but always try to make sure I'm flying with guys I know.
Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:34 pm
there are good and bad about flying with the same guys all the time. I can sight events both ways, newbies vs experianced, it just comes down to your comfort level.
new
Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:02 pm
Do the statistics support the idea that it is the new guys that are unsafe? I don't think so, although I admit I don't have a summary of the facts at hand. There was about nobody more paid and more experienced than Charlie Hilliard, who had been World Champion twice. Lot's of others, Rick, Art and Earl, Gerry, Dick etc. good and still gone. The Red Baron guys.
All the guys in the takeoff accident at Oshkosh were among our most highly experienced and expert pilots, I think all but one were military trained even before coming to warbirds.
One of the most fun airshows ever was at Breckenridge. It went on about a decade and I don't think there was ever an accident IN THE SHOW, certainly no one lost. It did NOT HAVE either paid performers or a paid airboss. It had people who were there because they loved it and some of them were expert pilots.
I am glad that when I began flying warbirds I found people like Howard Pardue, The Tired Iron guys,Bill Ross and others that welcomed me to warbirds and the shows. I try to do the same with anyone new coming in now. I can't say I find that the majority are primarily concerned with safety and willing to listen and possibly learn, whether old or new.
FG1D sharing of his P-47 fire was a good example of passing on knowledge to others.
All the guys in the takeoff accident at Oshkosh were among our most highly experienced and expert pilots, I think all but one were military trained even before coming to warbirds.
One of the most fun airshows ever was at Breckenridge. It went on about a decade and I don't think there was ever an accident IN THE SHOW, certainly no one lost. It did NOT HAVE either paid performers or a paid airboss. It had people who were there because they loved it and some of them were expert pilots.
I am glad that when I began flying warbirds I found people like Howard Pardue, The Tired Iron guys,Bill Ross and others that welcomed me to warbirds and the shows. I try to do the same with anyone new coming in now. I can't say I find that the majority are primarily concerned with safety and willing to listen and possibly learn, whether old or new.
FG1D sharing of his P-47 fire was a good example of passing on knowledge to others.
Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:53 pm
Bill, I don't think anyone here has suggested ever that the new guys are inherently unsafe or anything of the sort. You're being way too defensive on this matter. What is being said is that many of the guys who fly a lot of air shows every year aren't comfortable flying with new guys. Now, is this because they're not safe? Not necessarily. It's more that because you're flying in close proximity to other airplanes, you want to feel comfortable that you can anticipate what the other guy is going to do in a given situation. You gain that comfort flying with them at other shows where there's fewer planes, flying together outside of shows, and just getting to know the person on the ground.
I haven't started to fly anything in formation yet, but I want to some day. When I do, there are things I (as a new formation pilot) know that I need to do -
1) Get acquainted with the other pilots I'll be flying formation with.
2) Start from a wide formation and work in.
3) Start with small "flights" of 2 airplanes and work up.
4) Get into a FAST or TRARON clinic. Not because I think that they're the greatest or anything (I do think they're great tools though), but because it's an opprotunity to get instruction in a structured environment that is designed to help me become a better formation pilot.
I'm not going to expect to go to a big airshow (like Midland, Wings Over Houston, Nellis, Sun'N'Fun, or Oshkosh) and fly formation with the likes of Doug, Julian, Gary, you, or any other accomplished formation pilot for my first show. I'm going to work up to it and get to know others. I'm going to prove that I can be safe in the formation, but also that I'm not going to do anything "odd" and get comfortable with the other guys I'll be flying around in those bigger shows first and then work up to the big show.
At OSH, since it's just a "sign and fly" event from what I've understood, there is a lot of unknowns, something that I've always been told is something you don't want when flying close to other airplanes. Heck, I've been nervous flying into a parallel runway with another airplane becuase I don't know what he might do and knowing he (and I) are inexperienced pilots. I can only imagine what it's like flying OSH with guys you've probably never been around before too.
I haven't started to fly anything in formation yet, but I want to some day. When I do, there are things I (as a new formation pilot) know that I need to do -
1) Get acquainted with the other pilots I'll be flying formation with.
2) Start from a wide formation and work in.
3) Start with small "flights" of 2 airplanes and work up.
4) Get into a FAST or TRARON clinic. Not because I think that they're the greatest or anything (I do think they're great tools though), but because it's an opprotunity to get instruction in a structured environment that is designed to help me become a better formation pilot.
I'm not going to expect to go to a big airshow (like Midland, Wings Over Houston, Nellis, Sun'N'Fun, or Oshkosh) and fly formation with the likes of Doug, Julian, Gary, you, or any other accomplished formation pilot for my first show. I'm going to work up to it and get to know others. I'm going to prove that I can be safe in the formation, but also that I'm not going to do anything "odd" and get comfortable with the other guys I'll be flying around in those bigger shows first and then work up to the big show.
At OSH, since it's just a "sign and fly" event from what I've understood, there is a lot of unknowns, something that I've always been told is something you don't want when flying close to other airplanes. Heck, I've been nervous flying into a parallel runway with another airplane becuase I don't know what he might do and knowing he (and I) are inexperienced pilots. I can only imagine what it's like flying OSH with guys you've probably never been around before too.
show
Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:07 pm
Cap, for the most part flying in the show at Oshkosh is NOT formation flying, unless you are part of a big group like T6s. Mostly, AS I WROTE. it is just following around behind another fighter in trail. If a pilot is not part of a group, or does not have a formation card he can just follow as a single.
And if it is a simple formation flight say 2 Mustangs as an element and simple station keeping, it is not that hard anyway. If it is turbulent or you are doing a lot of manuvering it is harder and being part of a big group or of course formation acro is another level up.
As for experienced guys not flying in the show, some do and some don't. There are not many more experienced than Howard Pardue or Bud Granley, they also get paid and I have yet to hear them say the would not fly in the show at Osh or anywhere else.
Any quarterback would love to play behind a perfect line who never let a defender get through, but sometimes it doesn't work that way, and you have to adapt to other people who aren't perfect. I enjoy watching a football game, but I can't imagine wanting to only be in the stands rather than on the field if you have a choice. When you fly in a show like Oshkosh you may have to use a little more vigilance than if you were alone, but I personally think it is worth it and safe enough, or I wouldn't do it. MOST of our warbird fatalities are outside of airshows anyway, I believe.
And if it is a simple formation flight say 2 Mustangs as an element and simple station keeping, it is not that hard anyway. If it is turbulent or you are doing a lot of manuvering it is harder and being part of a big group or of course formation acro is another level up.
As for experienced guys not flying in the show, some do and some don't. There are not many more experienced than Howard Pardue or Bud Granley, they also get paid and I have yet to hear them say the would not fly in the show at Osh or anywhere else.
Any quarterback would love to play behind a perfect line who never let a defender get through, but sometimes it doesn't work that way, and you have to adapt to other people who aren't perfect. I enjoy watching a football game, but I can't imagine wanting to only be in the stands rather than on the field if you have a choice. When you fly in a show like Oshkosh you may have to use a little more vigilance than if you were alone, but I personally think it is worth it and safe enough, or I wouldn't do it. MOST of our warbird fatalities are outside of airshows anyway, I believe.
Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:30 pm
Bill, again, I didn't say exclusively formation. I said any time in close proximity to other airplanes. I think that it's been stated quite well by Doug the same concern I've heard over and over by other pilots who fly in airshows - the biggest danger isn't the guy on your wing (or who's wing you're on), but the guy over in the other formation/loop/whatever that has a problem and peels out right in front of you. When you are flying with guys you're comfortable with in a confined area (like the shows at Oshkosh and Midland), it's a lot easier as you feel like there's less of a chance of having someone do something really surprising (and some would say stupid) that would require everyone to scatter.
Again, this isn't to do with facts. Most pilots are inherently risk averse. You don't take risks you don't have to or want to, so feeling is as much of an issue as actual statistics. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, then you feel that you're taking more of a risk doing it, and thus you are less apt to do it.
Again, this isn't to do with facts. Most pilots are inherently risk averse. You don't take risks you don't have to or want to, so feeling is as much of an issue as actual statistics. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, then you feel that you're taking more of a risk doing it, and thus you are less apt to do it.
risk
Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:42 pm
Cap, I agree with one of your statements, "it isn't about facts".
As for most pilots being "risk adverse"; well I wouldn't want to have my eternal salvation depend on that statement. If we go deep down into our conscious where the truth is, most of us know that flying warbirds is not risk adverse. In fact it is dangerous and can be deadly. We do it because we like it and hope we can cut down the biggest ones like racing at Reno or scud running. And we think or hope we are good enough or lucky enough to do it.
As for most pilots being "risk adverse"; well I wouldn't want to have my eternal salvation depend on that statement. If we go deep down into our conscious where the truth is, most of us know that flying warbirds is not risk adverse. In fact it is dangerous and can be deadly. We do it because we like it and hope we can cut down the biggest ones like racing at Reno or scud running. And we think or hope we are good enough or lucky enough to do it.
Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Um. I suppose the question was more: "How aware are you of the way other people (like in other countries) do airshows, and have you learnt as much as you (reasonably) can from them?"
Also: "Have you ever looked at foreign airshows with a view to learning from them?"
Not 'who are you happy or not to fly with'...
More on topic - For instance - Airbosses are a primarily US concept; what alternatives are there? Why aren't they often seen outside N America?
Also - display flying at the Flying Legends airshow at Duxford is very different to the US model, as I understand it. Yet there are several well known US pilots who display at Legends (Ed Shipley and Steve Hinton) is there 'good practice' to be taken across the Atlantic, in either direction?
Also: "Have you ever looked at foreign airshows with a view to learning from them?"
Not 'who are you happy or not to fly with'...
More on topic - For instance - Airbosses are a primarily US concept; what alternatives are there? Why aren't they often seen outside N America?
Also - display flying at the Flying Legends airshow at Duxford is very different to the US model, as I understand it. Yet there are several well known US pilots who display at Legends (Ed Shipley and Steve Hinton) is there 'good practice' to be taken across the Atlantic, in either direction?
Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:40 am
JDK wrote:Also - display flying at the Flying Legends airshow at Duxford is very different to the US model, as I understand it. Yet there are several well known US pilots who display at Legends (Ed Shipley and Steve Hinton) is there 'good practice' to be taken across the Atlantic, in either direction?
I haven't flown in the British or Down Under shows because I don't know if I can fly on the left side of the sky.
Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:36 pm
FG1D Pilot wrote:JDK wrote:Also - display flying at the Flying Legends airshow at Duxford is very different to the US model, as I understand it. Yet there are several well known US pilots who display at Legends (Ed Shipley and Steve Hinton) is there 'good practice' to be taken across the Atlantic, in either direction?
I haven't flown in the British or Down Under shows because I don't know if I can fly on the left side of the sky.
Ah, that's not the problem, it's flying around the roundabouts that sorts the men from the Americans.
Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:40 pm
JDK wrote:Ah, that's not the problem, it's flying around the roundabouts that sorts the men from the Americans.
Whall, ya know, we have some of them thangs here, too. I know of at least one roundabout in San Antonio and one up the road a piece in New Braunfels, and I enjoy them... Oh wait, you said Americans, not Texans.
Ryan