Help Id'ing P-38, B-25, and B-23 in old Albuquerque photo

[Ryan Keough]

Hi everyone,

I've been doing some work with Cutter Aviation here in Phoenix (www.cutteraviation.com) for their 80th Anniversary this year (1928-2008). I came across this photo of their Albuquerque location sometime after WWII and wanted some help from the experts here on what the ID's of the P-38, B-25, and B-23 on their ramp is.

Additionally, I am wondering if anyone has an idea of what year this picture may have been taken.

Again, it's located at ABQ (Albuquerque Int'l Sunport). I have a link under the picture for the higher resolution, larger photo.



Link to full size image... here! >>> http://radial-group.com/warbirds/cutter_albuquerque.jpg

Thanks!

[Second Air Force]

Ryan,

I can't help with the warbird I.D.s, but I think the photo was taken in the 1962/63 timeframe. There are two Mooneys on the tie-down line, and one of them appears to be a '63. Also some of the single engined Cessnas have the swept tail ('61) and there is at least one with a back window, which came out in '62.

Incidentally, that beautiful hangar with "Cutter" on the roof is the WWII Sub-Depot hangar. The Corps of Engineer design designation for this hangar is "P-A", and I have a copy of the basic blueprint for that style hangar in my reference room. That is the typical "two B-29" hangar that I've referred to in other threads.

Thanks for posting the picture.
Scott

[Tailspin]

Ryan,
Looking at the cars, I would agree. There appears to be a 57/58 Corvette and from looking at others I would say late fifties to early 60s.
H

[Second Air Force]

Look at the fifth airplane in line just left of the B-23's wing--civilian T-34? And in the next row, nearer the camera, is another one between the shiny Aercoupe and one of the Mooneys. (Three airplanes left and one row in front of the B-25.)

[Ryan Keough]

Look at the fifth airplane in line just left of the B-23's wing--civilian T-34? And in the next row, nearer the camera, is another one between the shiny Aercoupe and one of the Mooneys. (Three airplanes left and one row in front of the B-25.)

Actually, I think that may be a Varga Kachina / Shinn 2150A.

http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20p ... /varga.htm

[Lynn Allen]

Ryan, tell Kelly Harper hello for me and get him to buy you lunch....

Lynn

[Second Air Force]

Ryan,

I'll bet you're right about the Kachinas--I didn't think that Beechcraft had sold any civilian T-34s and the Government surely wasn't surplusing them yet.

I have a question--did this hangar stand where the passenger terminal is now located, and is that the Runway 08 threshhold? Thanks in advance.

Scott

[Craig59]

The B-25 has obviously been modified with tip-tanks and it also appears to have the taller carb scoops indicative of the Hayes modification. Off the top of my head and with Scott Thompson's, B-25 Mitchell in Civil Service at hand, my guesses would be:

41-29784 - B-25D which underwent executive conversion, including tip-tanks, in 1953. It was registered to owners in ABQ from 1968 to 1970. This B-25 is now displayed aboard USS Yorktown in Charleston, SC.

43-4899 - B-25H which underwent executive conversion in 1956, including tip-tanks taken from 44-30988. This is the B-25H now with the Kalamazoo AHM.

44-30988 - B-25J (PBJ-1J) which underwent executive conversion in 1950. This is the PBJ now under restoration in Camarillo, CA.

I agree there is a Corvette with painted coves in the parking lot, making the photograph 1956 or later. That would make either of the first two B-25's the more likely candidates.

Last edited by Craig59 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

I'd agree with the Shinn 2150A ID. I've spent a bit of time around one

[Mudge]

Re. the P-38...I know there were a couple of guys at Kirtland that had P-38s.
That was when I was there in '56-59. Wonder if that one could be one of them.
I do remember that they'd often do their run-ups together. Lordy what a sound...frighten babies and break windows...WAHOO

Mudge the geezer

[Tinker51]

In front of and to the right of the P-38. Could that be a Skymaster? That would make the picture no older than 1961.

Against the building just to the left of the Beechcraft sign could be a VW Bug. Early 60's is when they started to appear in numbers.

Love the pool of oil under the left engine of the 25.

The 2 310's in the photo cannot be any newer than C models. They both have straight tales and tuna tanks which means they cannot have been made after 1960 I believe which blends in with the early sixties theory.

The aircraft furthest left, next to the aircoupe. Could that be a strutless 210? That would make it no earlier than 1967. Well...never mind. I can just make out wheel pants and have a hard time making out struts on the rest of the high wings.

I agree. The 3 T-34's look more like Vargas to me which again plays into the early 60's theme.

Is there any data there about the business in the background with the Texaco sign. Can that shed any light as to date?

[gregv]

Ryan,I can't help with the warbird I.D.s, but I think the photo was taken in the 1962/63 timeframe. There are two Mooneys on the tie-down line, and one of them appears to be a '63. Also some of the single engined Cessnas have the swept tail ('61) and there is at least one with a back window, which came out in '62.Scott

I agree, my guess is '62 to '64. There is a vehicle on the mid left (kinda on its own) that might be an early Corvair, and the one under the large sign on the front of the building looks similar to a 61-64 Impala/Bel Air/Biscayne.

Great shot, thanks for posting!

greg v.

[Ryan Keough]

I'd agree with the Shinn 2150A ID. I've spent a bit of time around one

Unfortunately I think I am going to retract my thought that they may be Varga/Shinns... Col. Rohr's astute eye pointed out that the gear have inward facing main gear... and doors. Cutter was the primary Beechcraft dealer/service center for the Southwest, so it makes sense that they had some of them. Rob also pointed out that the T-34A was being surplused by the USAF as of 1960.

I do think that the B-25 is 41-29784... Rob also agreed with that too. The owners at the time make it sensible. Too bad it's now a snackbar roof.

Thanks everyone! This has been amazing to see our collective detective skills!

[Steve Nelson]

Just a further bit of info..I don't think it's the Air Zoo's B-25. IIRC she never got the big, square carb intakes (at least I don't remember seeing them when she was sitting outside back in the early 80s..the only restoration that had been done at that time was a coat of olive drab to cover the civie scheme.)

SN

[Craig59]

I do think that the B-25 is 41-29784... Rob also agreed with that too. The owners at the time make it sensible. Too bad it's now a snackbar roof.

After looking at the below linked picture, I'd have to say 41-29784 as well.

http://www.patriotspoint.org/exhibits/planes/b25.html

The ABQ photograph shows an enlarged fuselage window installed behind the pilot, it has the tall carb scoops, no tail gunner position, the tail cone seems to match, etc.