how were the tora tora tora planes constructed?
Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:46 pm
happy superbowl sunday!!!!!!! does anyone out there know of a web site or have semi detailed info showing how these planes were constructed? i think i heard that they were harvards or something like that to start with. what is the general concensus of their accuracy as far as cosmetic duplicates? any comparison as far as performance goes or is that just being silly? pretty cool looking planes if you ask me , it would be neat to see how they were constructed though. thanks, sim.
Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:22 pm
I know this probably doesn't help much, but there was an article in an old Air Classics from '69 or so that has a pretty detailed account of the modifications at Long Beach. I have the issue, but it is currently in storage. Perhaps you can get a hold of that one. Other than that, I'm not aware of any articles or websites. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I haven't heard of any.
Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:50 pm
I saw them as they were built, Harvards mostly, but have no pix. Done by Stuart Davis at LBG, they had the PBY fuselages too in the back lot.
Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:54 pm
The aircraft were either T-6/SNJ/Harvards or BT-13/BT-15s, or combinations of both with bits of fiberglass and sheet metal added to further change the appearance. Over the years some have been nicely rebuilt so they wouldn't look as much like the movie hack jobs they were up close.
Since they were built from trainer parts, I can't imagine they had the same performance as the originals, although fiberglass bombs are probably much lighter than iron!
Since they were built from trainer parts, I can't imagine they had the same performance as the originals, although fiberglass bombs are probably much lighter than iron!
Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:19 pm
There was another firm also that did the modifications. I think it was Cal Vol Air or something like that. Someone will correct me.
I think Stewart Davis did most of the Kates and Vals, and Cal Vol Air the Zeroes.
The Zeroes were not lengthened at all except for the additional length of the lower rudder extension. Most were basically Harvards and many retained their entire second seat and controls under the added canopy and turtle decking.
Some of the Harvards had geared P&W's and others retained the original set-up. I think most of the geared versions had 3-bladed props.
The cowling was modified and an addition fake scoop add to the underside. the Harvard's oil cooler inlet on the left side was also moved to another spot.
They were given fiberglass external fuel tanks and BT-13 tail wheel assemblies that were made to retract.
The landing gear had gear doors attached and the leading edge of the wing had a fiberglass addition to cover from the wing root to the wing attach joint. This was done to hide the shape of the landing gears wheel well. In addition, rounded fiberglass wing tips were added to give it a more "Zero" like appearance.
The canopy was created and the side rails raised a few inches.
Cowling and wing machine guns were added to round out the lethal look.
The Kates had many of the same modifications that the Zeroes had in the wing area, and landing gear, but the basic T-6/Harvard fuselage was lengthened fore and aft of the cockpit and a BT-13 tail assembly grafted on. The vertical fin on the tail was modified slightly and the tail wheel was made to retract.
The cockpit rails were raised a few inches and a new canopy covering the three crew seats and rear mounted gun was constructed. The torpedoes were created and a working dropping release was built. The Kates really need to have their landing struts pumped up when they carry the torpedo so that the tail fins clear the tarmac. Again, Some had geared engines and some didn't.
The VALs were BT-13' that were lengthened in front of the cockpit and aft of the rear seat. They kept the BT-13 tail but added a fin fillet to make it look more like a VAL. The landing gear had wheel spats made from fiberglass and non-working dive brakes were added to the bottom of the wing, along with fiberglass rounded wingtips.
The biggest change was the engine. They dropped the BT's 450HP P&W's and added T-6 1340's at 600 HP, most of which had the geared versions.
As far as performance, maybe some of the Tora CAF guys out there could help. I know the Zero was faster than a stock T-6, but had a slower roll rate due to the wing tip extensions.
The Kate was heavier and slower that a regular T-6 (that's why when they made "Pearl Harbor", they didn't fly any Kates off the deck of the Lexington. Not enough horsepower)
The Vals were all around better and faster than the donor BT-13's, mainly due to streamlining and the larger engine.
I hope someone can add some more to this, as I'm going to go watch the Patriots win the Super Bowl!!!!
Blue skies,
Jerry
I think Stewart Davis did most of the Kates and Vals, and Cal Vol Air the Zeroes.
The Zeroes were not lengthened at all except for the additional length of the lower rudder extension. Most were basically Harvards and many retained their entire second seat and controls under the added canopy and turtle decking.
Some of the Harvards had geared P&W's and others retained the original set-up. I think most of the geared versions had 3-bladed props.
The cowling was modified and an addition fake scoop add to the underside. the Harvard's oil cooler inlet on the left side was also moved to another spot.
They were given fiberglass external fuel tanks and BT-13 tail wheel assemblies that were made to retract.
The landing gear had gear doors attached and the leading edge of the wing had a fiberglass addition to cover from the wing root to the wing attach joint. This was done to hide the shape of the landing gears wheel well. In addition, rounded fiberglass wing tips were added to give it a more "Zero" like appearance.
The canopy was created and the side rails raised a few inches.
Cowling and wing machine guns were added to round out the lethal look.
The Kates had many of the same modifications that the Zeroes had in the wing area, and landing gear, but the basic T-6/Harvard fuselage was lengthened fore and aft of the cockpit and a BT-13 tail assembly grafted on. The vertical fin on the tail was modified slightly and the tail wheel was made to retract.
The cockpit rails were raised a few inches and a new canopy covering the three crew seats and rear mounted gun was constructed. The torpedoes were created and a working dropping release was built. The Kates really need to have their landing struts pumped up when they carry the torpedo so that the tail fins clear the tarmac. Again, Some had geared engines and some didn't.
The VALs were BT-13' that were lengthened in front of the cockpit and aft of the rear seat. They kept the BT-13 tail but added a fin fillet to make it look more like a VAL. The landing gear had wheel spats made from fiberglass and non-working dive brakes were added to the bottom of the wing, along with fiberglass rounded wingtips.
The biggest change was the engine. They dropped the BT's 450HP P&W's and added T-6 1340's at 600 HP, most of which had the geared versions.
As far as performance, maybe some of the Tora CAF guys out there could help. I know the Zero was faster than a stock T-6, but had a slower roll rate due to the wing tip extensions.
The Kate was heavier and slower that a regular T-6 (that's why when they made "Pearl Harbor", they didn't fly any Kates off the deck of the Lexington. Not enough horsepower)
The Vals were all around better and faster than the donor BT-13's, mainly due to streamlining and the larger engine.
I hope someone can add some more to this, as I'm going to go watch the Patriots win the Super Bowl!!!!
Blue skies,
Jerry
Last edited by Jerry O'Neill on Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:33 pm
Here are scans of an article I stumbled across a few years ago. It's from the Summer 1969 issue of the Journal of the American Aviation Historical Society.
Enjoy!
Steve
Enjoy!
Steve
Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:37 pm
Cool Article Steve!
and Jerry...
HA!
and Jerry...
I'm going to go watch the Patriots win the Super Bowl!!!!
HA!
Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:45 pm
I know it was wishful thinking!
I was actually just rooting for a good close game, as I like both teams, but the Pat's a little bit more! Where I live in CT I'm about half-way between both stadiums!
Jerry
I was actually just rooting for a good close game, as I like both teams, but the Pat's a little bit more! Where I live in CT I'm about half-way between both stadiums!
Jerry
Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:04 pm
Actually, I think the bigger engine on the Vals just barely compensates for the added weight and drag. Don't forget, you've got the dive brakes and the bomb hanging out there.
National Capitol Sqn flys the only BT-13 in Normal Cat with a T-6 powerplant, and it's faster than the Val that often flys with us, using equivalent power settings.
National Capitol Sqn flys the only BT-13 in Normal Cat with a T-6 powerplant, and it's faster than the Val that often flys with us, using equivalent power settings.
Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:39 am
Weren't some aircraft also converted in Japan? What happened to those ? The Japanese crew built full scale replicas of the Akagi and the battleship that was the task force flagship. They were built of steel and extended off of the beach. Because of the surfline and incoming wave sets they really looked like they were at sea. The movie program shows Zeros taking off from the Akagi deck.
Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:09 am
RickH wrote:Weren't some aircraft also converted in Japan? What happened to those ? The Japanese crew built full scale replicas of the Akagi and the battleship that was the task force flagship. They were built of steel and extended off of the beach. Because of the surfline and incoming wave sets they really looked like they were at sea. The movie program shows Zeros taking off from the Akagi deck.
Rick:
I beilieve there were 30 built in the US. The number varies, but that's the one I've heard the most.
Nine Vals, Nine Kates and 12 Zeroes.
Now be aware that there were upwards of 25 T-6's quoted as being used in Japan for the Japanese sequences. Many were only painted like Japanese warbirds and used as background, but there were several Zeroes and Kates constructed in the same manner as their American cousins. the Zeroes were painted silver, however. Both of these constructions flew in Japan.
No Vals were known to have been constructed in Japan.
this is quite noticeable in the carrier take-off scenes filmed in Japan. No Vals are seen and the zeroes are in the front row wit h regular, unmodified T-6 standing in for Kates in the background.
It is unknown if any of the Japanese built replicas exist today.
Jerry
Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:08 am
So how many still exist today?
Scott....
Scott....
Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:08 pm
Good question. I still don't exactly know. 
But I wish I could own one of those replica Vals! So I've often thought, if i couldn't acquire this one..
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DG
Hey btw. Does anybody read the info on the bottom of the page. The USAF owns this Tora bird? Hmmmm.
Well if i couldn't acquire that beauty, then maybe I could make one out of one of those dusty BT-13 projects on Courtesy! Better yet, we could make two! Start a little squadron. Rent em out to shows. Ooops. Back to reality!
But I wish I could own one of those replica Vals! So I've often thought, if i couldn't acquire this one..
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DG
Hey btw. Does anybody read the info on the bottom of the page. The USAF owns this Tora bird? Hmmmm.
Well if i couldn't acquire that beauty, then maybe I could make one out of one of those dusty BT-13 projects on Courtesy! Better yet, we could make two! Start a little squadron. Rent em out to shows. Ooops. Back to reality!
Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:24 am
Here's some of the information I have on the "Tora" birds.
There is some discrepancy with the Val n-numbers,
so I've included the ones published in the Summer 1969
edition of the A.A.H.S Journal that Steve Nelson so kindly
scanned above, along with the ones that I had.
Not sure which is correct, but I'd lean a
little to the A.A.H.S!
I can't say where they all are now, as some may have
had their N-Numbers changed, but I know there have
been losses. As an estimate, I would guess that about
1/3 have been lost over the years.
“TORA, TORA, TORA” Aircraft list.
Vals: N 56867, N 36163, N 56336 (1st one completed),
N 65873, N 56478, N 67629, N 2200S, N 54865, N 18102
Some confusion here as 3 N-Numbers, N 67208, N 27003,
N 22009, have been reported as “Tora VALs” in some accounts.
Kates: N 1264, N 2047, N 7062C, N6438D,
N 3242G, N 3752G, N 7130C, N3239G (1st one modified),
1 unknown N-number crashed in Ocean in Hawaii, pilot survived.
Zekes: N 7754, N 7757, N 4447, N 12048, N 9097,
N 296W, N 7986C, N 15795, N 15796, N 15797, N 15798,
N 15799, (One Crashed in Hawaii)
Aircraft used/made in Japan:
5 flyable aircraft built in Japan by C. Itoh Company,
3 Kates, two Zekes. None came to the US after filming.
Silver Kates and Zekes were used in the flying scenes
and for studio blue screen processing close-ups in the
cockpits. There were also approximately 25 standard
T-6’s used as back drops, some with simulated folded
wings, most painted dark green. These can be seen in
the take-off sequences and in the return to the carrier
after the second attack wave.
B-17: N 17W, N 620L, N 621L, N 3193G, N 9563Z
B-25: N9754Z (destroyed in hanger scene)
P-40: N 151U, N 1207V
PBY: N 6180 (and four additional hulks that were
destroyed)
PT-17: N 6692C (Unsure of exact N-Number)
A-24 (SBD): N 15749(not used but brought to Hawaii)
Feel free to add or correct things. (since I'm not perfect!)
and if you know which ones are still around, feel free to
work off this list to help get an eventual accurate count.
Chris;
I 'm not sure the VAL at March is owned by the Air Force.
It might still be part of Tallichet's collection, though
somebody out their will probably have the right answer.
Blue skies,
Jerry
There is some discrepancy with the Val n-numbers,
so I've included the ones published in the Summer 1969
edition of the A.A.H.S Journal that Steve Nelson so kindly
scanned above, along with the ones that I had.
Not sure which is correct, but I'd lean a
little to the A.A.H.S!
I can't say where they all are now, as some may have
had their N-Numbers changed, but I know there have
been losses. As an estimate, I would guess that about
1/3 have been lost over the years.
“TORA, TORA, TORA” Aircraft list.
Vals: N 56867, N 36163, N 56336 (1st one completed),
N 65873, N 56478, N 67629, N 2200S, N 54865, N 18102
Some confusion here as 3 N-Numbers, N 67208, N 27003,
N 22009, have been reported as “Tora VALs” in some accounts.
Kates: N 1264, N 2047, N 7062C, N6438D,
N 3242G, N 3752G, N 7130C, N3239G (1st one modified),
1 unknown N-number crashed in Ocean in Hawaii, pilot survived.
Zekes: N 7754, N 7757, N 4447, N 12048, N 9097,
N 296W, N 7986C, N 15795, N 15796, N 15797, N 15798,
N 15799, (One Crashed in Hawaii)
Aircraft used/made in Japan:
5 flyable aircraft built in Japan by C. Itoh Company,
3 Kates, two Zekes. None came to the US after filming.
Silver Kates and Zekes were used in the flying scenes
and for studio blue screen processing close-ups in the
cockpits. There were also approximately 25 standard
T-6’s used as back drops, some with simulated folded
wings, most painted dark green. These can be seen in
the take-off sequences and in the return to the carrier
after the second attack wave.
B-17: N 17W, N 620L, N 621L, N 3193G, N 9563Z
B-25: N9754Z (destroyed in hanger scene)
P-40: N 151U, N 1207V
PBY: N 6180 (and four additional hulks that were
destroyed)
PT-17: N 6692C (Unsure of exact N-Number)
A-24 (SBD): N 15749(not used but brought to Hawaii)
Feel free to add or correct things. (since I'm not perfect!)
and if you know which ones are still around, feel free to
work off this list to help get an eventual accurate count.
Chris;
I 'm not sure the VAL at March is owned by the Air Force.
It might still be part of Tallichet's collection, though
somebody out their will probably have the right answer.
Blue skies,
Jerry
Last edited by Jerry O'Neill on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:37 am
One of the replicas was destroyed in a crash during the filming of Michael Bay's abomination in 2000..I think it was a Val. Fortunately the pilot suffered only minor injuries. Unfortunately, the the public suffered the release of the movie..
SN
SN