Would you have been an ace?
Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:04 am
Given the training, the effort, the occasion would you think you could be, or have been, one?
For me, although I don’t have a low self-esteem, I would say I’d be an average pilot, doing my job as professionally as I could and as best as I could. I saw a picture posted here of one pilot that had scores painted on his a/c with both Pacific and Europe markings. That could translate in what I would have been. Eager to do my best, to serve the cause, country, etc.
From the posts I have read here and although words don’t necessarily translate into action, I see there are a lot of really excellent guys that have the “right stuff”…
All in all, if there is a behavioral psychiatry present this post might make a good study of WIX member’s profiles.
For me, although I don’t have a low self-esteem, I would say I’d be an average pilot, doing my job as professionally as I could and as best as I could. I saw a picture posted here of one pilot that had scores painted on his a/c with both Pacific and Europe markings. That could translate in what I would have been. Eager to do my best, to serve the cause, country, etc.
From the posts I have read here and although words don’t necessarily translate into action, I see there are a lot of really excellent guys that have the “right stuff”…
All in all, if there is a behavioral psychiatry present this post might make a good study of WIX member’s profiles.
?????
Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:47 am
I had the pleasure or should I say misforture of being in a 1V1 between 2 AF F-15 pilots down at Marana. One in a T-28B and the other in a P-51D. I thought I was gotta die. They thought it was great fun! It was so hot and I was so weak I couldn't even puke. They had a ball and I had to be helped out of the 51 
My answer is no. The hind end of a P-3 was just fine!
My answer is no. The hind end of a P-3 was just fine!
Last edited by Jack Cook on Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:58 am
I have been flying since I was 14, and have flown a some different aircraft, and I can safely say "no". Those men are a special breed.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:16 am
There is a HUGE difference between flying an airplane and:
- Using it as a weapon to shoot down another airplane
- doing either one while someone is shooting back at you and your life is actually on the line.
Neither one of these can be estimated, approximated, or predicted until you actually have to do it. Nobody knows how they will perform when it is actual life-and-death at stake. Some of the guys who are great in training may be terrible when the shooting starts. Some of the average, humble guys may be the most ferocious fighters ever seen when the fir starts flying. It's impossible to know.
I will tell you that for me, personally, I was scared sh*tless the first time I went into combat at the bad guys were shooting back at me. I mean actual fear. Not the type of scared that you joke about to your buddies at the bar, but the type of fear that you don't admit to your friends because it was real. I'm talking about heat-in-your-throat, hands-trembling, fight-or-flight kind of scared.
I think that everyone who goes into combat has the same experience. Anyone who says they weren't scared is probably acting on what I printed above, because few soldiers find it macho to talk about how scared they were. Most importantly it is how each individual deals with that fear which separates the men from the boys. Again, there is no way to tell how each person will react until it actually happens to you.
All that being said, most of the "glory" for pilots has more to do with being at the right place at the right time, rather than having a special skill or aptitude for it. Certainly history has shown that fighting forces have had spectacular combat aviators who racked up impressive kills or bomb hits...but I think those men are the minority among combat units. Far more "heroes" are ordinary men who were in extraordinary circumstances.
- Using it as a weapon to shoot down another airplane
- doing either one while someone is shooting back at you and your life is actually on the line.
Neither one of these can be estimated, approximated, or predicted until you actually have to do it. Nobody knows how they will perform when it is actual life-and-death at stake. Some of the guys who are great in training may be terrible when the shooting starts. Some of the average, humble guys may be the most ferocious fighters ever seen when the fir starts flying. It's impossible to know.
I will tell you that for me, personally, I was scared sh*tless the first time I went into combat at the bad guys were shooting back at me. I mean actual fear. Not the type of scared that you joke about to your buddies at the bar, but the type of fear that you don't admit to your friends because it was real. I'm talking about heat-in-your-throat, hands-trembling, fight-or-flight kind of scared.
I think that everyone who goes into combat has the same experience. Anyone who says they weren't scared is probably acting on what I printed above, because few soldiers find it macho to talk about how scared they were. Most importantly it is how each individual deals with that fear which separates the men from the boys. Again, there is no way to tell how each person will react until it actually happens to you.
All that being said, most of the "glory" for pilots has more to do with being at the right place at the right time, rather than having a special skill or aptitude for it. Certainly history has shown that fighting forces have had spectacular combat aviators who racked up impressive kills or bomb hits...but I think those men are the minority among combat units. Far more "heroes" are ordinary men who were in extraordinary circumstances.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:41 am
No idea. I'd like to think that I'd do my job to the best of my ability.
Mudge the humble
Mudge the humble
ace
Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:43 am
Now there is topic! Oh, sur except I was too busy winning the Hiesman and the Nobel prize. I know that a tiny percentage of combat pilots were aces, many just flew the mission and never had a target or hit anything. It seems it would take great eyesight, a sense of tactics and awareness of the situation as well as aggression, perhaps even wanting to destroy the enemy even above wanting to live. One ace said it helped if you were not too concerned about self preservation.
I liked what Randy said about fear. The man who taught me to fly a Spitfire was a Vietnam combat veteran. His very first mission was in an E-6 Intruder, off a carrier, at night, in IMC weather to bomb the Ho Chi Minn trail. He said he was terrified, that his hands shook, but he went. And he was the overachiever type.
I know when I graduated, I could have gone to Nam. I was in the unit next to the one Bush was in at Ellington. It was late in the war, obvious it was a mistake and a disaster, and I had no commitment to it, as well as a real life at home. You could hardly find a leader? less worthy of following than Nixon. But past all the logic, I know I was scared on an emotional level. The war was dangerous, with a tough and unpredictable enemy.
Once there was a mass shooting by a sniper at our college. Wounded people were lying out on the hot pavement and no one wanted to leave cover to get them. I and another guy were willing, I was scared,but though it was worth the chance. We got talked out of it when told the sniper had hit a small dog who ran by. On an emotional level, I regret not trying, but it might have been suicicdal.
I liked what Randy said about fear. The man who taught me to fly a Spitfire was a Vietnam combat veteran. His very first mission was in an E-6 Intruder, off a carrier, at night, in IMC weather to bomb the Ho Chi Minn trail. He said he was terrified, that his hands shook, but he went. And he was the overachiever type.
I know when I graduated, I could have gone to Nam. I was in the unit next to the one Bush was in at Ellington. It was late in the war, obvious it was a mistake and a disaster, and I had no commitment to it, as well as a real life at home. You could hardly find a leader? less worthy of following than Nixon. But past all the logic, I know I was scared on an emotional level. The war was dangerous, with a tough and unpredictable enemy.
Once there was a mass shooting by a sniper at our college. Wounded people were lying out on the hot pavement and no one wanted to leave cover to get them. I and another guy were willing, I was scared,but though it was worth the chance. We got talked out of it when told the sniper had hit a small dog who ran by. On an emotional level, I regret not trying, but it might have been suicicdal.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:11 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:
Bill, all due respect, but did you absolutely HAVE to inject a political opinion into the post? I think we all know, by now, your opinion of ANY Republican.
Mudge the disappointed
(I was United Airlines liaison on the Nixon campaign plane when he ran for President. The stories I could tell ya'.)
It was late in the war, obvious it was a mistake and a disaster, and I had no commitment to it, as well as a real life at home. You could hardly find a leader? less worthy of following than Nixon.
Bill, all due respect, but did you absolutely HAVE to inject a political opinion into the post? I think we all know, by now, your opinion of ANY Republican.
Mudge the disappointed
(I was United Airlines liaison on the Nixon campaign plane when he ran for President. The stories I could tell ya'.
)
Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:18 pm
My Mom says I am Special and that is good enough! 
if you are talking WWII...
Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:21 pm
I probably would have been a "statistic"
????
Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:24 pm
but did you absolutely HAVE to inject a political opinion into the post?
I didn't even notice Mudge until you pointed it out
My friend Cy Gladen who was a P-40 ace said than being an ace didn't make you special in any way and he really didn't like the extra attention it brought him. He proclaimed himself to be only a average pilot and gunner. There were many he flew with who he said where much better airman. The difference was than he had the opportunity and was able to take advantage of the oppturnity. Many great pilots flew there whole tours without seeing a airborne enemy plane.
Mudge
Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:34 pm
Answer for Mudge. What I wrote was my personal experience in dealing with war and danger at that time. It seems to me a lot different and or easier to commit to a cause that one finds just or even heroic, than the opposite. And I think I would have been more willing to risk my life following Churchill than Nixon. You may feel different. But in all your many writings Mudge, I don't think I have ever asked you to leave out or alter what you believed or felt was pertinent.
As for you knowing my politics, not quite, I voted for Nixon once, when I was too young and naive to know better. You may have also, and be proud of it. I'm not. I'd be interested to know what part of his legacy you find most admirable? You can put it on Off Topics or send me a PM if you like. And in the interest of fairness/accuracy if you are going to quote someone maybe you should not pick out just one portion.
As for you knowing my politics, not quite, I voted for Nixon once, when I was too young and naive to know better. You may have also, and be proud of it. I'm not. I'd be interested to know what part of his legacy you find most admirable? You can put it on Off Topics or send me a PM if you like. And in the interest of fairness/accuracy if you are going to quote someone maybe you should not pick out just one portion.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:48 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:
Might be time to just get over it. No time like the present for step 1 of the 12 steps.
Answer for Mudge. What I wrote was my personal experience in dealing with war and danger at that time. It seems to me a lot different and or easier to commit to a cause that one finds just or even heroic, than the opposite. And I think I would have been more willing to risk my life following Churchill than Nixon. You may feel different. But in all your many writings Mudge, I don't think I have ever asked you to leave out or alter what you believed or felt was pertinent.
As for you knowing my politics, not quite, I voted for Nixon once, when I was too young and naive to know better. You may have also, and be proud of it. I'm not. I'd be interested to know what part of his legacy you find most admirable? You can put it on Off Topics or send me a PM if you like. And in the interest of fairness/accuracy if you are going to quote someone maybe you should not pick out just one portion.
Might be time to just get over it. No time like the present for step 1 of the 12 steps.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:29 pm
Getting back to the original question...
I would agree that I would probably end up as a statistic as well. That being said, I think I would have made a heck of a ground-attack pilot...
Not saying it wasn't dangerous in and of itself, I just think my talents would have been suited to it.
I would agree that I would probably end up as a statistic as well. That being said, I think I would have made a heck of a ground-attack pilot...
Not saying it wasn't dangerous in and of itself, I just think my talents would have been suited to it.
Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:03 pm
with my vision?? yes.... in the braille air force......... i'm blind as 
a bat
a bat
Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:12 pm
I think Randy really summed it up best. Unless you've actually been there, you don't know how you are going to react.
I also agree that being an ace also had a lot to do with being at the right place at the right time. Take Robert Johnson from the 56th FG for example. Even though he wanted to fly fighters, his superiors convinced him that after the shooting was over with, the guys with multi-engine training would get the jobs after the war. So, with that in mind, after his advanced training he had signed up to fly A-20s. For whatever the reason, the AAF disregarded his request and assigned Johnson to the 56th FG, and the rest, as they say, is history (much to the detriment of the pilots of 28 German aircraft).
Who is to say what would have happened had Johnson gotten his first choice and flown A-20s, or how many other Bob Johnsons there were, but didn't have the opportunity or the timing to be in his particular shoes.
One thing is certain, across the board, most WWII veterans accepted their role and would have taken any role that was assigned to them. If Johnson had been an A-20 pilot, or a C-47 pilot, or even an L-4 pilot, he would have still done it with the same dedication and ability as he had with a P-47. He may have not made headlines, but men like Johnson weren't out for the glory or the headlines. They were doing a job that they were assigned to do, and did it to the best of the abilities.
I also agree that being an ace also had a lot to do with being at the right place at the right time. Take Robert Johnson from the 56th FG for example. Even though he wanted to fly fighters, his superiors convinced him that after the shooting was over with, the guys with multi-engine training would get the jobs after the war. So, with that in mind, after his advanced training he had signed up to fly A-20s. For whatever the reason, the AAF disregarded his request and assigned Johnson to the 56th FG, and the rest, as they say, is history (much to the detriment of the pilots of 28 German aircraft).
Who is to say what would have happened had Johnson gotten his first choice and flown A-20s, or how many other Bob Johnsons there were, but didn't have the opportunity or the timing to be in his particular shoes.
One thing is certain, across the board, most WWII veterans accepted their role and would have taken any role that was assigned to them. If Johnson had been an A-20 pilot, or a C-47 pilot, or even an L-4 pilot, he would have still done it with the same dedication and ability as he had with a P-47. He may have not made headlines, but men like Johnson weren't out for the glory or the headlines. They were doing a job that they were assigned to do, and did it to the best of the abilities.