UK flying boat to be raised?
Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:30 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wale ... 103578.stm
found this article in my mail box, wondering if anyone knows of any other details about it?
found this article in my mail box, wondering if anyone knows of any other details about it?
Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:34 am
very interesting. I look forward to hearing about this in the future.
Cheers,
David
Cheers,
David
Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:13 pm
Cool! After nearly 70 years in salt water, I wonder what kind of shape she's in.
SN
SN
Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:17 pm
Very interesting, I wonder if the plan will be to display it in state once recovered, or if it will be restored to a certain extent.
This leads me to ask, are there any other flying Sunderlands/Sandringhams around the world? I know the Weeks Sunderland was flying up until about 10 years ago... but I don't think it's in that condition now.
Additionally, where are the restored displayed examples?
This leads me to ask, are there any other flying Sunderlands/Sandringhams around the world? I know the Weeks Sunderland was flying up until about 10 years ago... but I don't think it's in that condition now.
Additionally, where are the restored displayed examples?
Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:57 pm
I don't like the smell of this one, and it's not just the fish.
Most wartime Sunderlands which went into the water or were sunk at moorings in anything other than ideal conditions were scrapped, back then. What we'll see (if anything) will be a selection of metal bits with all the strength of soap, and some heavily corroded engines, props and guns.
The Sunderland, like any large flying boat is a very large light construction, and like an egg, once the integrity's gone, they just crumple up. It's hard enough dealing with the inter-granular corrosion on a single seat fighter type, let alone... Sorry to sound negative, but it looks like an optimistic effort by those who don't know what they are dealing with.
Kermit's example, ex G-BJHS was the last airworthy example, and the most likely to be returned to fly; not currently airworthy though.
Briefly, there are two Sunderlands in military configuration in the UK, one Sandringham there as well; Kermit's semi-Sandringham conversion, in Florida, a Sandringham and a Sunderland in NZ, a Sandringham in store in France and a Solent in California, as well as various large parts and sections.
While there aren't currently any airworthy, which is a pity, all the survivors on land are in good hands and generally well looked after. IMHO, we don't need a wreck that will consume untold cash and effort and isn't viable as a rebuild, even if it is the extinct Mk.I
We'd love to get a Sunderland to Australia; but how much would someone pay to do that?
Most wartime Sunderlands which went into the water or were sunk at moorings in anything other than ideal conditions were scrapped, back then. What we'll see (if anything) will be a selection of metal bits with all the strength of soap, and some heavily corroded engines, props and guns.
The Sunderland, like any large flying boat is a very large light construction, and like an egg, once the integrity's gone, they just crumple up. It's hard enough dealing with the inter-granular corrosion on a single seat fighter type, let alone... Sorry to sound negative, but it looks like an optimistic effort by those who don't know what they are dealing with.
This leads me to ask, are there any other flying Sunderlands/Sandringhams around the world? I know the Weeks Sunderland was flying up until about 10 years ago... but I don't think it's in that condition now.
Additionally, where are the restored displayed examples?
Kermit's example, ex G-BJHS was the last airworthy example, and the most likely to be returned to fly; not currently airworthy though.
Briefly, there are two Sunderlands in military configuration in the UK, one Sandringham there as well; Kermit's semi-Sandringham conversion, in Florida, a Sandringham and a Sunderland in NZ, a Sandringham in store in France and a Solent in California, as well as various large parts and sections.
While there aren't currently any airworthy, which is a pity, all the survivors on land are in good hands and generally well looked after. IMHO, we don't need a wreck that will consume untold cash and effort and isn't viable as a rebuild, even if it is the extinct Mk.I
We'd love to get a Sunderland to Australia; but how much would someone pay to do that?
Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:07 pm
Not complete, but an interesting collection of surviving seabird pics:
http://website.lineone.net/~roling47/SeaWings_page.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~roling47/SeaWings_page.htm
Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:39 pm
JDK wrote:grumpy grump poo poo OOOOH YE of Little Faith!
Come one James. Have some hope here, son. Maybe an underground mudslide covered it, and we'll be able to fly kites over it to take pictures. And then they'll find Amelia buried in the mud below that. And Gilligan will run all of us over in the SS Minnow as he and the Skipper, escaping the Island, sail the Titanic into the mudbank.
Or maybe not. Maybe it WILL be a few chunks of rusted out, almost unrecognizeable bits.
Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:58 pm
I get your point James but this one is very close to shore and although it will never become a flyer, it might make a very nice static restoration. In another 50 years there will likely be nothing left of it so it's probably now or never. Would you say the same thing about the recovery of the Mary Rose?
Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:18 am
I'd be the first to be keen to see a Mk.I Sunderland go on show as a recognisable aircraft, static or a flyer. I'd be happy to see a recognisable wreck.
Thanks to Dave's link, you can see the recovered Pegasus engine. Note the absence of the cowling, which is aircraft grade structure. The significantly tougher engine, prop and exhaust collector ring are all there, in relative position - a missing piston's hole is visible. The wing spars, and certain other parts and mountings, as well as the other three engines, turrets and certain fittings may have survived as well; but the monocoque stressed skin construction, mud or covering advantage included, will be buggered. Lifting a super-size B-17 equivalent integrally-constructed (one piece) aircraft would be worth watching. Then you've got to stop what you do have dissolving in front of your very eyes.
Yes, it can be recovered. It can even be rebuilt. But how much would that cost? Is that worth the cash?
If it gets people interested in history and aviation, then it's got a great merit, but even with massive volunteer support and donations, you are still requiring a lot of expensive specialist conservation equipment.
I shan't talk about the significant number of funding shortfalls in UK aviation projects, but cash doesn't flow easily, and I'd be hard pushed to see it as the most deserving. Sunderland enthusiast as I am, I think the money would be better spent on, say, getting the Sea Vixen back in the air.
The Mary Rose provided a phenomenal amount of data we didn't know before, and was an important single item in the history of Henry VIII's reign, naval tactics, the Royal Navy, and European history. Sunderlands are lovely, and important, but they are neither extinct or as critical to our understanding of history.
Sorry, the post was meant to just say 'awsome'.
However, I wish them the best of luck, and will do what I can to promote it.
Cheers,
Thanks to Dave's link, you can see the recovered Pegasus engine. Note the absence of the cowling, which is aircraft grade structure. The significantly tougher engine, prop and exhaust collector ring are all there, in relative position - a missing piston's hole is visible. The wing spars, and certain other parts and mountings, as well as the other three engines, turrets and certain fittings may have survived as well; but the monocoque stressed skin construction, mud or covering advantage included, will be buggered. Lifting a super-size B-17 equivalent integrally-constructed (one piece) aircraft would be worth watching. Then you've got to stop what you do have dissolving in front of your very eyes.
Yes, it can be recovered. It can even be rebuilt. But how much would that cost? Is that worth the cash?
If it gets people interested in history and aviation, then it's got a great merit, but even with massive volunteer support and donations, you are still requiring a lot of expensive specialist conservation equipment.
I shan't talk about the significant number of funding shortfalls in UK aviation projects, but cash doesn't flow easily, and I'd be hard pushed to see it as the most deserving. Sunderland enthusiast as I am, I think the money would be better spent on, say, getting the Sea Vixen back in the air.
The Mary Rose provided a phenomenal amount of data we didn't know before, and was an important single item in the history of Henry VIII's reign, naval tactics, the Royal Navy, and European history. Sunderlands are lovely, and important, but they are neither extinct or as critical to our understanding of history.
Sorry, the post was meant to just say 'awsome'.
However, I wish them the best of luck, and will do what I can to promote it.
Cheers,
Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:43 am
This aircraft was the subject of a documentary by the "Wreck Detectives". I don't remember which UK TV channel it was that made the programme but there was quite a bit of underwater footage, and coverage of the raising of the pegasus engine.
The aircraft wasn't completely wrecked, but it was by no means complete either.
I remember it vividly, as within a few minutes of showing the underwater shots there was a good shot of the engine and prop. The team then spent a couple of days research tring to figure out what mark of Sunderland it was...
Had it been shown live, they would have heard me shouting from there.
Regards
Ric
The aircraft wasn't completely wrecked, but it was by no means complete either.
I remember it vividly, as within a few minutes of showing the underwater shots there was a good shot of the engine and prop. The team then spent a couple of days research tring to figure out what mark of Sunderland it was...
Had it been shown live, they would have heard me shouting from there.
Regards
Ric
Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:51 am
It is very unlikely given the circumstances of salt-water immersion for 60 years. It is possible, in certain circumstances, to put a small compact fighter such as a P-40, on static display in much the same condition it emerged but with something as large as a Sunderland the structural integrity, as James said, is highly likey to be compromised to the extent that the aircraft would break apart as soon as it was moved. The only real future for water recoveries, is in my opinion, the deep fresh-water examples of which there are many still undisturbed. In contrast to the salt-water recoveries some of these have actually been restored to flight. I know of no long term sea immersed aircraft that has been so restored.astixjr wrote:I get your point James but this one is very close to shore and although it will never become a flyer, it might make a very nice static restoration.
Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:15 am
Has anything ever been planned about the Sunderland in the Chatham Islands? Surely any restoration candidate would benefit from the use of parts (or all) of this wreck.
It would probably be a better base for a Sunderland reconstruction than a salt water one.
Ric
It would probably be a better base for a Sunderland reconstruction than a salt water one.
Ric
Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:56 am
Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:24 am
Richard Woods wrote:Has anything ever been planned about the Sunderland in the Chatham Islands? Surely any restoration candidate would benefit from the use of parts (or all) of this wreck.
It would probably be a better base for a Sunderland reconstruction than a salt water one.
Hi Ric,
There's some bits there, but there's a lot missing too, and the bits aren't in great shape. Finally, I don't think the Chatham Islanders (from what I recall reading) would be prepared to let it go - they rather like it there.
Rather than this seeming a very negative thread, let's take a moment to recognise and thank some of those who have already preserved Sunderlands and their descendants before it was too late:
Peter Thomas of Skyfame, saviour of the RAF Museum's example, back when old aircraft entertainment was burning them or turning them into discos.
Charles Blair, saviour of several, and Edward Hulton, Peter Smith and finally Kermit Weeks who stayed with ML814 when no-one was interested. Heir of the Hulton empire Edward was roundly abused for his 'white elephant' by at least one of the UK tabloid papers.
The team in California battling to keep their Solent saved.
The Science Museum and 'Solent Sky' for the impeccable and accessible 'Beachcomer'
MOTAT in NZ for getting it together with their examples, before it was too late, and keeping these huge things when that was regarded as 'odd'.
Le Bourget for at least storing their 'bateau Anglais' under cover.
And many more who don't get credit where due.
Cheers,