P-38J identification (WWII crash site)
Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:49 pm
I am attempting to identify a P-38J crash site in Arizona from Apr 45.
Do the following photos appear to be P-38J instrument faces? I hope this link works:
http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s53/ ... d73/P-38J/
The climb indicator/VSI and manifold pressure gauge differ quite a bit from my P-38 references, but I dont have too many books on the Lightning.
I thought I located the crash site of P-38J (labelled as a "TP-38J" in the USAAF accident report) serial 43-28865 near the town of Wittman, Arizona (approx 24 west-northwest of Luke Field). Pilot 1Lt Frank Capel was fatal after bailing out too low. He landed feet first on top of his chute 600 yards south of the wreck, which went in at 40 degrees, high speed, left wing/left engine first. April 24 1945. The a/c was attached to Luke Field, appears to have carried Field # X-944.
Only about 2-or-300 very small parts remain around the deep impact crater, including these instrument gauge faces. I could not find a single one that had a Lockheed stamp or part# on it. The location matches the accident report very well, and the material appears old -- circa WWII. I just want to be able to verify it as P-38J.
I also found what appears to be part of a Marvel Schebler Aircraft carburetor piece -- were these used on the P-38's Allisons?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. It is looking more like I found a civvie crash right where the P-38 was supposed to be.
The thing that is throwing me off is the Bendix data plate which also matches civilian magnetos for 4-bangers like Continental or Lycoming. So I am insecure about my find this morning. Also the Marvel Schebler carb piece...
--> Chris Baird
www.arizonawrecks.com
PS -- if you look at the comparison photo of the original accident report photo and the crash site as I found it today -- it appears that the same large battery piece is sticking straight up in the center of the impact photo in both shots! Might just be my imagination.
[/img]
Do the following photos appear to be P-38J instrument faces? I hope this link works:
http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s53/ ... d73/P-38J/
The climb indicator/VSI and manifold pressure gauge differ quite a bit from my P-38 references, but I dont have too many books on the Lightning.
I thought I located the crash site of P-38J (labelled as a "TP-38J" in the USAAF accident report) serial 43-28865 near the town of Wittman, Arizona (approx 24 west-northwest of Luke Field). Pilot 1Lt Frank Capel was fatal after bailing out too low. He landed feet first on top of his chute 600 yards south of the wreck, which went in at 40 degrees, high speed, left wing/left engine first. April 24 1945. The a/c was attached to Luke Field, appears to have carried Field # X-944.
Only about 2-or-300 very small parts remain around the deep impact crater, including these instrument gauge faces. I could not find a single one that had a Lockheed stamp or part# on it. The location matches the accident report very well, and the material appears old -- circa WWII. I just want to be able to verify it as P-38J.
I also found what appears to be part of a Marvel Schebler Aircraft carburetor piece -- were these used on the P-38's Allisons?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. It is looking more like I found a civvie crash right where the P-38 was supposed to be.
The thing that is throwing me off is the Bendix data plate which also matches civilian magnetos for 4-bangers like Continental or Lycoming. So I am insecure about my find this morning. Also the Marvel Schebler carb piece...
--> Chris Baird
www.arizonawrecks.com
PS -- if you look at the comparison photo of the original accident report photo and the crash site as I found it today -- it appears that the same large battery piece is sticking straight up in the center of the impact photo in both shots! Might just be my imagination.
[/img]
Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:01 am
Hello Chris,
The carb part and mag data plate are light GA and not P-38. It looks like there is a small electric fuel pump in one shot. From what I am looking at I do not see anything that looks like P-38 but a small General Aviation aircraft.
Best of luck,
Taigh
The carb part and mag data plate are light GA and not P-38. It looks like there is a small electric fuel pump in one shot. From what I am looking at I do not see anything that looks like P-38 but a small General Aviation aircraft.
Best of luck,
Taigh
Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:35 am
Yep, Deft spam can. Guessing by the fuel pump, mag and carb parts, I would guess you found a Piper Cherokee. as both used that style of electric pump. The mag is used on these lycoming engines: ÝÝO-145-B2, -B3, -C2, -C3, ÝÝO-235-C, O-235-C1, -C1A, O-320-A1A, -A2A, -B1A, -B2A, O-340-A, -A1A, -A2A, -B1A, B2A, O-360- A, -A1A, -A1B , -B1A, -B2A
Chris, I have worked on few warbirds over the years and I am in Phx if you need help Iding parts.
Chris, I have worked on few warbirds over the years and I am in Phx if you need help Iding parts.
Last edited by Matt Gunsch on Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:52 am
The picture labeled "apparent battery piece - B" appears more likely to me to be the letter R. The colors reminded me of old Firestone logos but they used a lower case R.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:32 am
P-38 instrument panels:
http://uscockpits.com/Early%20Fighters/Early%20Fighters.html#P38
Note that the VSI is +/- 2000 FPM while all the P-38 panel photos show +/- 6000 FPM.
And of course a P-38 would not have had a Marvel Schebler carb.
http://uscockpits.com/Early%20Fighters/Early%20Fighters.html#P38
Note that the VSI is +/- 2000 FPM while all the P-38 panel photos show +/- 6000 FPM.
And of course a P-38 would not have had a Marvel Schebler carb.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:55 pm
Thank you all very much --- you helped me definately rule out a P-38.
It appears to be a Cessna 175 that crashed in that area in 1979, 4 fatal. Not positive yet.
The Bendix magneto is off an O-235.
The P-38 site is somewhere in that same area, I have to keep looking. The depth of this Cessna crater, the debris, etc --- really fooled me. But you're right, the performance #s on the VSI shouldve been my first clue.
(from Burbank to Wichita at one crash site)
Thanks again for the info,
Chris Baird
It appears to be a Cessna 175 that crashed in that area in 1979, 4 fatal. Not positive yet.
The Bendix magneto is off an O-235.
The P-38 site is somewhere in that same area, I have to keep looking. The depth of this Cessna crater, the debris, etc --- really fooled me. But you're right, the performance #s on the VSI shouldve been my first clue.
(from Burbank to Wichita at one crash site)
Thanks again for the info,
Chris Baird
Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:33 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_175
Cessna 175 should have a six-cylinder GO-300. O-235 is too small for that aircraft and is only four-cylinders. Both Lycomings though.
Cessna 175 should have a six-cylinder GO-300. O-235 is too small for that aircraft and is only four-cylinders. Both Lycomings though.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:48 pm
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_175
An unusual feature of the 175 is the use of the geared Continental GO-300 engine.
Not to mention 6 cyls. vs. 4.
An unusual feature of the 175 is the use of the geared Continental GO-300 engine.
Not to mention 6 cyls. vs. 4.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:25 pm
If you're having conflicts over location, maybe the GA rubbernecker packed it in looking for (or at) the P-38.
Canso42
Canso42
grim but you could well be correct...
Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:40 pm
Canso42 wrote:If you're having conflicts over location, maybe the GA rubbernecker packed it in looking for (or at) the P-38.
Canso42
Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:42 pm
HA! You're probably right. Or the bug smasher crashed right on top of the 38.
I think it's N7494M (NTSB has a brief report on it). VFR into IMC, 200 hrs on the PIC, etc.
I'll post the P-38 on here if I find it. My gut tells me it is within a mile, maybe 2, of this Cessna.
--> Chris B.
Many thanks again for all of your expertise.
I think it's N7494M (NTSB has a brief report on it). VFR into IMC, 200 hrs on the PIC, etc.
I'll post the P-38 on here if I find it. My gut tells me it is within a mile, maybe 2, of this Cessna.
--> Chris B.
Many thanks again for all of your expertise.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:17 pm
Something that says it is not a 175, is the electric fuel pump, and the magneto, those point to a Piper, either a Comanchee, or Cherokee. The fuel system on a 175 does not have a fuel pump, it is gravity feed system. The only way they could be a 175 is if it had a Lycoming engine STC and a auto fuel STC, as some auto fuel STC s required the addition of a fuel pump.
Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:55 am
Matt,
You could easily be correct about this one. I have not identified the crash site at all with the scant pieces I found. Dont know if I ever will.
The impact crater was deep, still hard for me to believe a Cessna could do that over flat desert unless he went in 45 or vertical. After at least 30 years of erosion it was still 2+ feet deep in hard pan desert. Still, very possible though and the best match.
I am working off the Civil Air Patrol "wreckage locator list" which puts that Cessna 175 crash (N7494M) within a few miles of the site I found. Nothing else seems to match. The CAP list is notoriously off by miles anyway.
I posted an additional article about the P-38 pilot I just found on my photobucket page (very sad, he had an infant son)(the son would be in his 60s now!):
http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s53/ ... d73/P-38J/
The P-38J location info in the article puts it close to this GA crash, so I bet the P-38 is very close by.
I dont know if I will ever be able to positively ID this site because the civvie accident reports prior to 1983 are almost impossible to obtain!
I sent a request to the Cessna 175 Skylark club to see if maybe they recognized the parts (http://www.cessna175-r172.org/).
Cheers again for the input. I realized on this one that I need to be much more careful about reading clues at old crash sites and not jumping to conclusions because the old accident report photo seems to line up. "Bending the map" to fit.
--> Chris B.
You could easily be correct about this one. I have not identified the crash site at all with the scant pieces I found. Dont know if I ever will.
The impact crater was deep, still hard for me to believe a Cessna could do that over flat desert unless he went in 45 or vertical. After at least 30 years of erosion it was still 2+ feet deep in hard pan desert. Still, very possible though and the best match.
I am working off the Civil Air Patrol "wreckage locator list" which puts that Cessna 175 crash (N7494M) within a few miles of the site I found. Nothing else seems to match. The CAP list is notoriously off by miles anyway.
I posted an additional article about the P-38 pilot I just found on my photobucket page (very sad, he had an infant son)(the son would be in his 60s now!):
http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s53/ ... d73/P-38J/
The P-38J location info in the article puts it close to this GA crash, so I bet the P-38 is very close by.
I dont know if I will ever be able to positively ID this site because the civvie accident reports prior to 1983 are almost impossible to obtain!
I sent a request to the Cessna 175 Skylark club to see if maybe they recognized the parts (http://www.cessna175-r172.org/).
Cheers again for the input. I realized on this one that I need to be much more careful about reading clues at old crash sites and not jumping to conclusions because the old accident report photo seems to line up. "Bending the map" to fit.
--> Chris B.