Ball turret remains...
Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:10 pm
I've been meaning to get into the "modern age" now for awhile and post some images from the side of the world, and figured with it already 105 degrees outside and it's too hot to work on my junk in the hangar, here goes.
(Bear with me ya'll.... I'm new to Photobucket by all of 20 minutes or so, so this thing is more a test for me than anything else....)
This one's for Mr. Peters... what was left of a complete ball turret that was reduced to a mere shell for a Hollywood appearance back in the 1960s.
Back in 1968, the studio responsible for the film "Tora, Tora, Tora!" arrived in PHX and spoke with the owners of Globe Air, and aerial application firm that operated several B-17s as fire bombers. During the "off season" the movie studio had made arrangements to use on the the firm's B-17s for some film work and the owners were asked to do something to "militarize" their airplane for the screen.
Globe's B-17 fleet had been procured largely from military surplus sales from the Litchfield Naval Air Facility, and these ex-Navy birds had been purged of gun turrets during their final service in the 1950s. The owners weren't terribly keen on spending a lot of time and energy to put gun turrets back on the airplanes - which earned their keep dropping slurry during the summer season - but the producers insisted upon a "more military look." And seeing as how the film work paid well, the search began for turrets.
A top turret dome was discovered in a neighboring junkyard. A brand new, crated ball turret was found at Palley's Supply in Los Angeles (a war surplus dealer) for $100. The guys dragged it back to PHX, broke down the crate, and were frustrated to discover they had a complete ball turret but no easy way to hang it on the airplane. The Navy had removed the ball turret hangar and had covered the hole with a sheet metal patch when the bird served in this service branch. What to do?
Someone suggested that all anyone really needed to see was about two-thirds of a ball turret hanging down under the belly of the beast. The modifications began. All the internal parts were removed and tossed to the junk pile outside the hangar. Out came the hacksaws, and the aluminum shell of the ball turret was modified and shortened. The addition of a few pieces of angle iron and a series of bolts permitted the fitting of the chopped shell to the correct spot on the airplane without further modifications. Pieces of shop broom handle were painted black and installed into the gun ports. The bomber was ready for her movie debut.
After the film work had finished, the bumps and warts were hastily removed and the B-17 went back to fighting forest fires around the country until it was finally retired and sold at auction in 1985. Both the top turret dome and ball shell remained hidden in the weeds behind the hangar until they were hauled away by someone who had an interest.
I'm not sure who ended up with the Sperry upper dome, but what a score that must've been for someone. This poor old ball turret shell went from PHX down to Tuscon. At some time during the early 1980s it appeared briefly on the belly of the B-17 that is now on display in the Pima Air and Space Museum's 390th BG collection, shorltly after their acquisition of a former borate bomber. It was temporarily fitted to this airplane once again until a complete ball turret was found for that restoration and subsequently installed.
This poor battered ball shell once again found its way out to the storage yard in the back of Pima Air and Space Museum until sometime in the 1990s when it officially "went missing." I've often wondered what became of it, as current museum staff members have no record of it being traded or sold, and I can't imagine it was scrapped.
Sure would've been at least something to help those of us with turret projects. Anyone have a clue as to where it ended up?
(Bear with me ya'll.... I'm new to Photobucket by all of 20 minutes or so, so this thing is more a test for me than anything else....)
This one's for Mr. Peters... what was left of a complete ball turret that was reduced to a mere shell for a Hollywood appearance back in the 1960s.
Back in 1968, the studio responsible for the film "Tora, Tora, Tora!" arrived in PHX and spoke with the owners of Globe Air, and aerial application firm that operated several B-17s as fire bombers. During the "off season" the movie studio had made arrangements to use on the the firm's B-17s for some film work and the owners were asked to do something to "militarize" their airplane for the screen.
Globe's B-17 fleet had been procured largely from military surplus sales from the Litchfield Naval Air Facility, and these ex-Navy birds had been purged of gun turrets during their final service in the 1950s. The owners weren't terribly keen on spending a lot of time and energy to put gun turrets back on the airplanes - which earned their keep dropping slurry during the summer season - but the producers insisted upon a "more military look." And seeing as how the film work paid well, the search began for turrets.
A top turret dome was discovered in a neighboring junkyard. A brand new, crated ball turret was found at Palley's Supply in Los Angeles (a war surplus dealer) for $100. The guys dragged it back to PHX, broke down the crate, and were frustrated to discover they had a complete ball turret but no easy way to hang it on the airplane. The Navy had removed the ball turret hangar and had covered the hole with a sheet metal patch when the bird served in this service branch. What to do?
Someone suggested that all anyone really needed to see was about two-thirds of a ball turret hanging down under the belly of the beast. The modifications began. All the internal parts were removed and tossed to the junk pile outside the hangar. Out came the hacksaws, and the aluminum shell of the ball turret was modified and shortened. The addition of a few pieces of angle iron and a series of bolts permitted the fitting of the chopped shell to the correct spot on the airplane without further modifications. Pieces of shop broom handle were painted black and installed into the gun ports. The bomber was ready for her movie debut.
After the film work had finished, the bumps and warts were hastily removed and the B-17 went back to fighting forest fires around the country until it was finally retired and sold at auction in 1985. Both the top turret dome and ball shell remained hidden in the weeds behind the hangar until they were hauled away by someone who had an interest.
I'm not sure who ended up with the Sperry upper dome, but what a score that must've been for someone. This poor old ball turret shell went from PHX down to Tuscon. At some time during the early 1980s it appeared briefly on the belly of the B-17 that is now on display in the Pima Air and Space Museum's 390th BG collection, shorltly after their acquisition of a former borate bomber. It was temporarily fitted to this airplane once again until a complete ball turret was found for that restoration and subsequently installed.
This poor battered ball shell once again found its way out to the storage yard in the back of Pima Air and Space Museum until sometime in the 1990s when it officially "went missing." I've often wondered what became of it, as current museum staff members have no record of it being traded or sold, and I can't imagine it was scrapped.
Sure would've been at least something to help those of us with turret projects. Anyone have a clue as to where it ended up?
Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:30 pm
Thanks for the info "Pooner" (love the name 
)...I mean Rob. 
This is also the same set-up that Fuddy Duddy has...a ball turret cut in half and riveted to the belly of the aircraft. It's a crying shame to see these rare turrets being cut up like that but back in those days people didn't even think twice about cutting up old planes & turrets.
I talked with Jay Wisler a while back and he says that Kermit Weeks apparently has some of these half ball turrets in storage. He was going to see about a trade to help me out but I haven't heard anything yet. Even a 1/2 shell would be a big boost to my project since I already have quite a few scrap pieces for the upper half as well as the armored bottom section.
Anymore ball turrets pics? If so...keep them coming!
John
)...I mean Rob.
This is also the same set-up that Fuddy Duddy has...a ball turret cut in half and riveted to the belly of the aircraft. It's a crying shame to see these rare turrets being cut up like that but back in those days people didn't even think twice about cutting up old planes & turrets.
I talked with Jay Wisler a while back and he says that Kermit Weeks apparently has some of these half ball turrets in storage. He was going to see about a trade to help me out but I haven't heard anything yet. Even a 1/2 shell would be a big boost to my project since I already have quite a few scrap pieces for the upper half as well as the armored bottom section.
Anymore ball turrets pics? If so...keep them coming!
John
Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:52 pm
It's too hot to be working on the PV right now and that nasty old ant bait tank really stinks in the heat, so this 'Pooner figured he'd move indoors and seek some shade (that, and try to get some real work done... that is, something that makes money, not eats it like a PV-2 Harpoon).
Hope Jay and Kermit can come through with some shell pieces for you. It's this part of the search that can be maddening, but you have the patience of a saint. Keep me in mind for any spares you find for my project, and I'll do same for you!
Have you ever thumbed through a copy of Palley's from the 1950s? All the parts we could ever want and use were available for purchase. They even advertised some new ErCo ball turrets for the PB4Y-1 and -2 for $250 each. I'm not sure why they commanded more than the Sperry or Briggs ball turrets that Gene Packard (Globe Air founder) remembered for $100 each in '68 but who knows?
Can't imagine anyone cutting on a ball turret like they did, but at the time I suppose few people wanted them and it was a supply and demand thing. And I guess fairly recently in my lifetime I've seen B-52 tail turrets sitting in the junkyard awaiting scrapping and I didn't save them either.
Now that I have successfully navigated my first Photobucket/WIX union I'll have to share more!
Hope Jay and Kermit can come through with some shell pieces for you. It's this part of the search that can be maddening, but you have the patience of a saint. Keep me in mind for any spares you find for my project, and I'll do same for you!
Have you ever thumbed through a copy of Palley's from the 1950s? All the parts we could ever want and use were available for purchase. They even advertised some new ErCo ball turrets for the PB4Y-1 and -2 for $250 each. I'm not sure why they commanded more than the Sperry or Briggs ball turrets that Gene Packard (Globe Air founder) remembered for $100 each in '68 but who knows?
Can't imagine anyone cutting on a ball turret like they did, but at the time I suppose few people wanted them and it was a supply and demand thing. And I guess fairly recently in my lifetime I've seen B-52 tail turrets sitting in the junkyard awaiting scrapping and I didn't save them either.
Now that I have successfully navigated my first Photobucket/WIX union I'll have to share more!
Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:04 pm
Thanks Rob...I'll definately keep you in mind if I come across spares of anything. I keep joking with my two boys that I'll hopefully have this project finished in about 20 years...if I'm lucky! 
That would be interesting looking through one of those Palley catalogs from the 1950's (and a bit depressing
).
I've heard of B-52 tail turrets being scrapped out in Arizona but I was under the impression it was a no-no for civilian collectors to acquire one. Is this correct???
John
That would be interesting looking through one of those Palley catalogs from the 1950's (and a bit depressing
).
I've heard of B-52 tail turrets being scrapped out in Arizona but I was under the impression it was a no-no for civilian collectors to acquire one. Is this correct???
John
Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:59 pm
Lengthy projects are good ones! Just like old houses - finish one part and yet another needs attention. I'll have to live to 150 before I'll finish all I have tasked myself to do.
Palley catalogues have some of the best photos, drawings and p/n's of some of the war surplus stuff and while they always don't ID what the part came off of, they're a great reference point. And they're cheap, too - I see them from time to time on eBay for $5 - $10 tops. It's interesting to see what some of the civilian uses of WWII aero surplus adapted to as suggested in the catalogue. Some made sense - eg. bomber trailing antenna reels turned into garage door openers. DC generators used as small arc welders. Merlin or Allison coolant pumps hooked to an electric motor for use as a basement sump pump. Some of these items made a lot of sense - while others did not... like making your own scuba diving apparatus out of a bomber oxygen tank, hose and regulator assembly, strapped to one's body with a pair of GI suspenders holding a cartridge belt filled with lead weights (really!).
As recently as 18 months ago, HAVECO in Tucson, AZ had several 20MM B-52 tail turrets in the scrapyard. Most were removed directly from scrapped "BUFFS" but there were a few NOS ones in the pile, too. I think Don wanted $1,000 - $1,500 or so each for them, but each of them was in less than desireable condition is the military had done something them as part of the de-mil process before they were sold for scrap. The de-mil was pretty nasty if I remember correctly - either torch cut(s) or crush damage (dropping them on top of one another). Last time I was there was to inspect some C-123 parts; the turrets were still in a heap. Anyone who has an interest in them might want to e-mail Don Howell directly at HAVECO@aol.com for a status report. He's one of the last of the aero scrap guys down near Davis Monthan AFB who has anything for sale. He's a great guy to deal with as well.
Palley catalogues have some of the best photos, drawings and p/n's of some of the war surplus stuff and while they always don't ID what the part came off of, they're a great reference point. And they're cheap, too - I see them from time to time on eBay for $5 - $10 tops. It's interesting to see what some of the civilian uses of WWII aero surplus adapted to as suggested in the catalogue. Some made sense - eg. bomber trailing antenna reels turned into garage door openers. DC generators used as small arc welders. Merlin or Allison coolant pumps hooked to an electric motor for use as a basement sump pump. Some of these items made a lot of sense - while others did not... like making your own scuba diving apparatus out of a bomber oxygen tank, hose and regulator assembly, strapped to one's body with a pair of GI suspenders holding a cartridge belt filled with lead weights (really!).
As recently as 18 months ago, HAVECO in Tucson, AZ had several 20MM B-52 tail turrets in the scrapyard. Most were removed directly from scrapped "BUFFS" but there were a few NOS ones in the pile, too. I think Don wanted $1,000 - $1,500 or so each for them, but each of them was in less than desireable condition is the military had done something them as part of the de-mil process before they were sold for scrap. The de-mil was pretty nasty if I remember correctly - either torch cut(s) or crush damage (dropping them on top of one another). Last time I was there was to inspect some C-123 parts; the turrets were still in a heap. Anyone who has an interest in them might want to e-mail Don Howell directly at HAVECO@aol.com for a status report. He's one of the last of the aero scrap guys down near Davis Monthan AFB who has anything for sale. He's a great guy to deal with as well.
Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:25 pm
Hey, Rob, wondered how long it was going to take you to find your way here.
Rick Harris
Rick Harris
Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:25 am
The item in question, onscreen:
Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:42 am
What would a completely intact ball turret bring on today's market? Let's say a guy knew where there was one with some sort of ID tags still in it and smells of cosmoline or some sort of preservative. Do I understand that there were different types of turrets? Sperry and Briggers? Kinda curious as to what the value would be... 
Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:06 pm
6trn4brn wrote:What would a completely intact ball turret bring on today's market? Let's say a guy knew where there was one with some sort of ID tags still in it and smells of cosmoline or some sort of preservative. Do I understand that there were different types of turrets? Sperry and Briggers? Kinda curious as to what the value would be...
I've been told a completely restored ball turret (if you can find one) would run about $30,000. This is based off what some folks have paid in the past for one. Of course if it's in less than perfect shape (which most are) it would be far less.
Ball turrets were designed by Sperry and were manufactured under contract by Briggs & Emerson Electric. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference since Briggs usually used gray paint on the inside of the turret and Emerson tended to use a dark green paint. Since parts are so scarce most restorers aren't picky on which parts are used in their project...they're just happy to find them.
Now I have to ask...do you have leads to a little gem hidden somewhere in a barn in Indiana?
John
Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:58 am
Hi John...thanx for the info. As far as a turret in an Indiana barn, that would certainly be a sweet find as would be the one (if there really is) that I heard a friend talking about. As is the case 99% of the time, I would imagine that the rumored turret probably does not exist. However, when this guy talked about what a friend of his was telling him about the tags still in it... I am sure if I mention the fact that it would be worth quite a lot of cash, all of the BS should be stripped away and the real story should come out....should. Thanx again for the info...I have learned so much from all of the great people here on this site!
I am sure if I mention the fact that it would be worth quite a lot of cash, all of the BS should be stripped away and the real story should come out....should. Thanx again for the info...I have learned so much from all of the great people here on this site!
Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:51 am
Awesome shots of the B-17 there, Chris. Thank you for sharing. After posting my initial message I discovered I had had a "senior moment" as Globe actually had TWO B-17s in the picture that had been outfitted for this role (N620L and N621L) and the guys had actually purchased more than one turret. Perhaps the other "shell section" that was discussed elsewhere might be another one of these survirors, too.
Thank you, Rick - finally made it here after been a "behind the scenes lurker" for an extended period.
I'm certain there are undiscovered treasures out there to be found, and the tale of the "new in box" ball can't be discounted. Nothing ventured, nothing gained - press this source for details and see what happens. I'm inclined to think there are more junkyard treasures hidden away than new stuff, but you never know. My first ball turret (ErCo 250 SH nose for PB4Y-1 and -2 Privateer) came from a busy scrapyard 25 blocks from downtown PHX that I'd passed by hundreds of times over the years and never gave a second thought. It wasn't until someone mentioned that this place had had airplane parts back in the 1960s and someone remembered gun turrets in the yard that I paused. A buddy and I became curious and tracked down the elusive yard owner to ask him about it. There was indeed truth to the tale.
He'd bought four of them at a Litchfield NAF auction for $35 each and thought they were all aluminum and planned to scrap them out. It was only until he had them trucked back to the yard he discovered the half-inch iron armor plate in the turret that comprised the bulk of the weight, and was irritated that he'd been "taken" to spend what he did on "useless junk." He took one apart to see if there was any salvage value and determined this to be a waste of time. One turret was sold to a local Scottsdale blacksmith and bar owner, and he put it in the parking lot of his bar for 25 years or so. Another was given to an engineering professor at Arizona State University, and he ended up donating it to Pima Air and Space Museum years later (it's now restored and on indoor display for all to see).
The last one was hidden under a pile of debris in the salvage yard and kept only for sentimental value - his grandkids had once played in it. After about a year of patiently enquiring about the turret and basically making a polite but complete pest of myself, the scrap dealer caved and finally parted with it. That was a tough 12 months - I'd go visit the turret each weekend and try to keep it hidden so someone else didn't go in and find it, and money was not the motivating factor for the owner.
Anyway, a long and drawn out story, but the gist of it has become my personal parts hunting mantra - there's stuff out there, and even in the most "picked over" or inconspicuous spots. Keep hunting... and if you don't want or need it, someone else will!
Thank you, Rick - finally made it here after been a "behind the scenes lurker" for an extended period.
I'm certain there are undiscovered treasures out there to be found, and the tale of the "new in box" ball can't be discounted. Nothing ventured, nothing gained - press this source for details and see what happens. I'm inclined to think there are more junkyard treasures hidden away than new stuff, but you never know. My first ball turret (ErCo 250 SH nose for PB4Y-1 and -2 Privateer) came from a busy scrapyard 25 blocks from downtown PHX that I'd passed by hundreds of times over the years and never gave a second thought. It wasn't until someone mentioned that this place had had airplane parts back in the 1960s and someone remembered gun turrets in the yard that I paused. A buddy and I became curious and tracked down the elusive yard owner to ask him about it. There was indeed truth to the tale.
He'd bought four of them at a Litchfield NAF auction for $35 each and thought they were all aluminum and planned to scrap them out. It was only until he had them trucked back to the yard he discovered the half-inch iron armor plate in the turret that comprised the bulk of the weight, and was irritated that he'd been "taken" to spend what he did on "useless junk." He took one apart to see if there was any salvage value and determined this to be a waste of time. One turret was sold to a local Scottsdale blacksmith and bar owner, and he put it in the parking lot of his bar for 25 years or so. Another was given to an engineering professor at Arizona State University, and he ended up donating it to Pima Air and Space Museum years later (it's now restored and on indoor display for all to see).
The last one was hidden under a pile of debris in the salvage yard and kept only for sentimental value - his grandkids had once played in it. After about a year of patiently enquiring about the turret and basically making a polite but complete pest of myself, the scrap dealer caved and finally parted with it. That was a tough 12 months - I'd go visit the turret each weekend and try to keep it hidden so someone else didn't go in and find it, and money was not the motivating factor for the owner.
Anyway, a long and drawn out story, but the gist of it has become my personal parts hunting mantra - there's stuff out there, and even in the most "picked over" or inconspicuous spots. Keep hunting... and if you don't want or need it, someone else will!
Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:04 am
I am not sure if Rick H or some of you other guys ever heard the story on how "909" got it's ball turret. In the late 80's "909" crashed off of the end of the runway at BVI Beaver County Airport near Pittsburgh, PA. Air Heritage restored 909 to flying status again. When "909" crashed off the end of runway 28, it did not have a real ball turret and no tail stinger. The tails stinger was hand made by one man in the hangar, with thekp from a few others. The Ball turret was given to us. An older gentleman came in and asked if they were going to need a ball turret. When the volunteers said yes, he said he had one at home. So everyone thought that he had the outer shell of the turret. Everyone was shocked when he showed up with the whole turret suspension and all! He said he had it between the washer and dryer at home, and his wife was bugging him to get rid of it. I joined the group shortly after that and at the end of the restoration of 909.
Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:21 pm
Awesome story - and a picture of "909" I hadn't seen before. I'd heard the story from old crew members, and how neat that a garage find ended back up on an airplane! All I ever seem to find between my washer and dryer at home are lint balls, a stray coin or two and maybe a sock.... must be doing something wrong.
Turrets have ended up in the strangest of places. I remember three had been found on some Texas rancher's property back in the 1980s (one in the hands of a collector in Callie and I assume the others ended up on restored airplanes). The tales of the turret finds in the Georgia junkyard are pretty legendary, too. Oh, to have been "in" on that find... sigh...
Most unusual hiding spot for an unrestored turret? How about an air force base? Had a friend who drove for the motor pool in the early 1980s at the former Williams AFB in Arizona. He was a CAF member of the newly formed Arizona Wing, and they'd just finished installing the ball on SJ and he mentioned it one day to someone on base.
"I think there's an old bomber turret in storage at the parachute shop," he was told. And upon investigating, there indeed was a dirty but complete ball as removed from a B-24 (as ID'ed by the retract mechanism) in the storage area of the building and it had been there for some time.
There was talk about donating it to the Wing, but SJ already had a ball turret at that time and there wasn't much in the way of local interest. Apparantly, the loose talk about the ball turret ended up in the ears of a USAF officer and eventually the turret was removed from the back of the 'chute shop. No doubt it ended up in heritage program inventory for use on an Air Force Museum restoration or a loaner.
Turrets have ended up in the strangest of places. I remember three had been found on some Texas rancher's property back in the 1980s (one in the hands of a collector in Callie and I assume the others ended up on restored airplanes). The tales of the turret finds in the Georgia junkyard are pretty legendary, too. Oh, to have been "in" on that find... sigh...
Most unusual hiding spot for an unrestored turret? How about an air force base? Had a friend who drove for the motor pool in the early 1980s at the former Williams AFB in Arizona. He was a CAF member of the newly formed Arizona Wing, and they'd just finished installing the ball on SJ and he mentioned it one day to someone on base.
"I think there's an old bomber turret in storage at the parachute shop," he was told. And upon investigating, there indeed was a dirty but complete ball as removed from a B-24 (as ID'ed by the retract mechanism) in the storage area of the building and it had been there for some time.
There was talk about donating it to the Wing, but SJ already had a ball turret at that time and there wasn't much in the way of local interest. Apparantly, the loose talk about the ball turret ended up in the ears of a USAF officer and eventually the turret was removed from the back of the 'chute shop. No doubt it ended up in heritage program inventory for use on an Air Force Museum restoration or a loaner.
Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:32 pm
Cool stuff. If you like I can see what other pics I have of 909 from it's restoration here in Pittsburgh. I have a ton through out the whole process.
Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:26 pm
mustangdriver wrote:Cool stuff. If you like I can see what other pics I have of 909 from it's restoration here in Pittsburgh. I have a ton through out the whole process.
Post them please