P-38 and glider experiments
Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:38 pm
How well known is it that the P-38 was used in an experiment to snatch a glider from the ground during a fly-by? I had never heard of this before, but got an e-mail from Gen. Robert Cardenas yesterday about an experiment he was involved with to do such a thing, where he snatched a glider in Ohio and towed it all the way to Florida with a P-38.
He didn't provide too many details, so I wanted to see if people here knew more about it. Because if it isn't known here, then I know it's not widely known at all.
He did send me two pics...so I will ask him for permission to post them here, assuming there is any interest.
He didn't provide too many details, so I wanted to see if people here knew more about it. Because if it isn't known here, then I know it's not widely known at all.
He did send me two pics...so I will ask him for permission to post them here, assuming there is any interest.
P-38 vs. glider
Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:21 am
I'm interested - what type of glider was it? Surely not a big one like a CG-4A?
Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:27 am
as a glider pilot I am very interested to see pictures of how all this worked.
Cheers,
David
Cheers,
David
Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:28 am
Very interesting. No, I've not heard of such an experiment, and it can't have been funny for the P-38 (and pilot) due to using an aircraft designed for high speed pursuit as a tug - not good for the engines!
Any info and pics most welcome.
Any info and pics most welcome.
Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:25 am
pics.... pics....pics!!! i find that amazing!!
Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:58 am
How could it "grab" the glider without the sudden acceleration ripping it to shreds, let alone damaging the P-38?? It would have to be going pretty slow, right? The sudden addition of drag would slow it way down too, right?
Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:14 am
If it came from Cardenas, I gotta' believe it. He doesn't need any "self-aggrandizement". He's done enough in his lifetime to fill a book or two.
That said, it would be VERRY INTERESTING to see pictures.
Mudge the trusting
That said, it would be VERRY INTERESTING to see pictures.
Mudge the trusting
Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:44 pm
Django wrote:How could it "grab" the glider without the sudden acceleration ripping it to shreds, let alone damaging the P-38?? It would have to be going pretty slow, right? The sudden addition of drag would slow it way down too, right?
Snatch tows are a well tried system. For a start some sort of give in the 'rope' is a pre-requisite. As a start, it's usual to use an aircraft with a lower performance and an engine that's happy with a lot of power at low speeds; not exactly a description of a P-38! However the RAF used Kestrel engined Hart family aircraft as glider tugs, and they were considered high performance in an earlier era. Doesn't mean they didn't have cooling and engine problems though.
Re: P-38 vs. glider
Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:59 am
Chris Brame wrote:I'm interested - what type of glider was it? Surely not a big one like a CG-4A?
A couple of years ago I was at the NMUSAF, and picked up a book on WWII gliders "Silent Ones: WWII Invasion Glider Test and Experiment" by Charles L. Day. This chronicals the testing at the Clinton County Army Air Field.
It has a page in there about using P-38's as glider tugs for CG-4A, including the necessary modifications to the P-38. It doesn't say anything about snatches, just towing off of the ground. It does mention that Bob Cardenas did tow a CG-4A from the factory in Minneapolis to Pinecastle air base in Orlando and back to CCAAF.
I would definitely be interested in the pictures.
Chuck
Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:53 am
This rings a bell...Very many years ago in, I think, one of the old Sentry magazines, there was a random photo of a pranged early-model P-38 at Wright Field. The caption, iirc, said the Lightning had been involved in a glider tug experiment, the glider had "dug-in" somehow or other and brought the P-38 to a halt so violently that the nose gear collapsed and both tailbooms snapped! Have no way of posting the pic but if I can find the mag (I never throw anything away, so it'll be here somewhere) I'll post the issue and date.
S.
S.
Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:49 pm
I remember seeing a picture and some info in a book of a P-38 comming in behind the glider to pick it up.
Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:31 pm
Gen. Cardenas was kind enough to allow me to share the two photos he sent to me. In one, you can clearly see that he is towing a CG-4A. In the other, there is a much smaller glider sitting near the point where he is making the snatch, so maybe that's from a different experiment. Anyway, this is what he relayed to me:
"Have attached a couple of pictures that are definitely not known. My boss General Fred R, Dent was in charge of glider development for WWII. WE established a special base for that in Wilmington Ohio at Clinton County airport. I was in charge of developing the best tow plane for the invasion Gliders. I proved that the P-38 was the living best. Then one day a couple of civilians in grey flannel suits established a requirement to snatch a glider or human from the ground with minimum equipment required.
Attached are pictures of me snatching a CG-4A with a P-38 and the towing it all the way to a base in Florida. Have no idea what it was for and did not ask."
He later followed up with this info:
"The reason why thew P-38 was the best towplane was that first & formost they had the power to tow three at the same time. Secondly the glider plugs were on the inside end of each boom. A cable connected each plug and the tow rope of the gliders rode on a pulley that was free to ride anywhere on the cable therby offsetting any side force by a glider. Thirdly was the counter rotating props on the P-38. All of this made for a straight tow down the runway.
Finally when you release the Gliders you have eight 50's in the wings to clear a path for the glider. I proved this but they cost too much and we did not have too many so we were stuck with the C-47 at the cost of many glider crews lives. Sad."
"Have attached a couple of pictures that are definitely not known. My boss General Fred R, Dent was in charge of glider development for WWII. WE established a special base for that in Wilmington Ohio at Clinton County airport. I was in charge of developing the best tow plane for the invasion Gliders. I proved that the P-38 was the living best. Then one day a couple of civilians in grey flannel suits established a requirement to snatch a glider or human from the ground with minimum equipment required.
Attached are pictures of me snatching a CG-4A with a P-38 and the towing it all the way to a base in Florida. Have no idea what it was for and did not ask."
He later followed up with this info:
"The reason why thew P-38 was the best towplane was that first & formost they had the power to tow three at the same time. Secondly the glider plugs were on the inside end of each boom. A cable connected each plug and the tow rope of the gliders rode on a pulley that was free to ride anywhere on the cable therby offsetting any side force by a glider. Thirdly was the counter rotating props on the P-38. All of this made for a straight tow down the runway.
Finally when you release the Gliders you have eight 50's in the wings to clear a path for the glider. I proved this but they cost too much and we did not have too many so we were stuck with the C-47 at the cost of many glider crews lives. Sad."
Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:03 pm
If you have it available, check out the 1991 book by Warren M. Bodie entitled "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning 'It Goes Like Hell'.... Kelsey". Page 80 (see also pages 83 and 84) has the photo as described above of P-38G-3-LO 42-12781 with its nose gear collapsed and both tailbooms broken in a downward direction. The accident took place at Wright Army Airfield, Ohio, date unknown. The details were also unknown to the author. He speculates that either the glider(s) dug in on takeoff and upended or the glider failed to release and after a landing while still attached, either tug or glider dug into the turf and the P-38's tailbooms were broken.
Lockheed had designed a "yoke-type glider tow system" that could accommodate one or more gliders at a time. The apparatus was attached to the outboard tips of the horizontal stabilizer. The glider being towed could move laterally approximately 60 degrees and up to 45 degrees above or below the line of flight of the towplane (P-38).
Flight tests were performed near Orlando, Florida with a Waco CG-4A. A Lockheed document (drawing?) showed three gliders being towed by one P-38!!! I could find no information regarding whether the takeoff began from a standing start or if a snatch pick up was used.
A Google search of "P-38" + "42-12791" shows that an accident report is available from Accident-Report.com. Perhaps Craig Fuller of Aviation Archaeological Investigation and Research (AAIR) can access this report and fill us in on the exact details!
Todd
Lockheed had designed a "yoke-type glider tow system" that could accommodate one or more gliders at a time. The apparatus was attached to the outboard tips of the horizontal stabilizer. The glider being towed could move laterally approximately 60 degrees and up to 45 degrees above or below the line of flight of the towplane (P-38).
Flight tests were performed near Orlando, Florida with a Waco CG-4A. A Lockheed document (drawing?) showed three gliders being towed by one P-38!!! I could find no information regarding whether the takeoff began from a standing start or if a snatch pick up was used.
A Google search of "P-38" + "42-12791" shows that an accident report is available from Accident-Report.com. Perhaps Craig Fuller of Aviation Archaeological Investigation and Research (AAIR) can access this report and fill us in on the exact details!
Todd
Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:07 pm
Truly amazing. Thank you for sharing this very interesting piece of nearly totally unknown history. I agree that the P-38 would have made a very good tow-plane. Power is essential, and if towing more than one glider, multiple attach points also helps.
Cheers,
David
Cheers,
David
Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:50 am
Both above photos of Bob Cardenas' were made at Clinton County Army Air Field. The B-W is a regular tow, off the ground, of a CG-4A glider. The color image is a P-38 "snatching" a tow target. This could be done because the tow target was very light weight -- likely less than 100 lb.
Bob Cardenas could probably expound on the P-38 with the collapsed nose wheel and bent tail booms. In my research, I have not found a written documentation speaking of the accident. But, early on, Bob was about the only power pilot that pulled a CG-4A glider with the P-38. It would have been him or Chet Decker.
The P-38 take-off was so fast the CG-4A (or CG-15A) would be off the ground flying in a very short distance. The glider pilot had to fly the glider close to the ground until the P-38 was off the ground with plenty of clearance. If the GP pulled up too high the P-38 would be hung by its tail putting the nose on the runway. This is likely what happened to cause the nose wheel to collapse and break the tail and it was probably lucky that both planes got stopped and did not pile into each other a few feet off the ground.
I would post a picture of the two P-38 tow releases but don't know how. There was a release built into the horizontal stabilizer just outside of each vertical stabilizer. A yolk (cable) was attached to the releases and the glider tow line attached to a device that slid on that cable (yolk). A P-38 towing more than one CG-4A or larger glider is doubtful. The C-54 was the only tug that coudl successfully tow three loaded CG-4A gliders.
A snatch of a CG-4A by the P-38 is unlikely because the P-38 could not be equipped with the required snatching winch. Along with the elasticity of the nylon tow line, the winch was the real secret that made the snatch possible (explained in other threads on this site).
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Bob Cardenas could probably expound on the P-38 with the collapsed nose wheel and bent tail booms. In my research, I have not found a written documentation speaking of the accident. But, early on, Bob was about the only power pilot that pulled a CG-4A glider with the P-38. It would have been him or Chet Decker.
The P-38 take-off was so fast the CG-4A (or CG-15A) would be off the ground flying in a very short distance. The glider pilot had to fly the glider close to the ground until the P-38 was off the ground with plenty of clearance. If the GP pulled up too high the P-38 would be hung by its tail putting the nose on the runway. This is likely what happened to cause the nose wheel to collapse and break the tail and it was probably lucky that both planes got stopped and did not pile into each other a few feet off the ground.
I would post a picture of the two P-38 tow releases but don't know how. There was a release built into the horizontal stabilizer just outside of each vertical stabilizer. A yolk (cable) was attached to the releases and the glider tow line attached to a device that slid on that cable (yolk). A P-38 towing more than one CG-4A or larger glider is doubtful. The C-54 was the only tug that coudl successfully tow three loaded CG-4A gliders.
A snatch of a CG-4A by the P-38 is unlikely because the P-38 could not be equipped with the required snatching winch. Along with the elasticity of the nylon tow line, the winch was the real secret that made the snatch possible (explained in other threads on this site).
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