PBO - what does this designation mean?

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:13 pm

The American forces apparently called the Lockheed Hudson a PBO. I have worked out that the P and B must stand for Patrol Bomber but what does the O stand for? Is it Observation? Or was O the letter assigned to Lockheed, like in TBF the F = Grumman, etc?

Also, was PBO a designation assigned by the US Navy, US Marine Corps, US Army Air Force or an overall US body?

US three-letter codes are far too confusing for me, I like to stick to good old names like Hudson.

Thanks.

Chris · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:19 pm

Don't know about "O" but I believe the Navy used "V" to designate Lockheed, such as PV-2 and P2-V.

flyingsailor · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:38 pm

Dave Homewood wrote:

The American forces apparently called the Lockheed Hudson a PBO. I have worked out that the P and B must stand for Patrol Bomber but what does the O stand for? Is it Observation? Or was O the letter assigned to Lockheed, like in TBF the F = Grumman, etc?

Also, was PBO a designation assigned by the US Navy, US Marine Corps, US Army Air Force or an overall US body?

US three-letter codes are far too confusing for me, I like to stick to good old names like Hudson.

Thanks.

The Navy does things their own unique way...best and easiest explanation that I have seen was done by Randy Wilson here
http://rwebs.net/avhistory/acdesig/usnavy.htm
PBO translates into Patrol-Bomber constructed at Lockheed Plant B

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:52 pm

O = USN designation for Observation [EDIT: Except when it's the third letter, where it's the manufacturer's code, as flyingsailor's explained above].

http://rwebs.net/avhistory/acdesig/usnavy.htm

Dave Homewood wrote:

The American forces....

You've lumped a couple of different things there - no such thing at the time as a unified 'American forces'. The US Army (inc Army Air Corps/Forces) and US Navy had separate designations systems (often different for the same 'airplane').

Military Model 14s were known (in all cases) as Hudsons across the RAAF, RAAF, RNZAF, SAAF and stations west, while the same type was known as: A-28 or A-29; AT-18 or AT-18A, C-63 (trooper, none made / used) C111 (for a handful of ex-Dutch model 14s) as well as the aforementioned PBO. Confused? you will be, in the next episode of Aircraft Designations - sorry, Soap.

It remains a puzzle to me why our American enthusiasts have a major allergy to serial numbers and type names, but insist on using a generally over-precise* over-complex and inconsistent designation system, and a warbird's personal name even when it's particularly vague / duplicated. Meanwhile the Commonwealth tend to ignore designations, use type names and serials rather than individual warbird names... Then there's the British descision that Classical Education was dying out and everyone was using Arabic numbers rather than Roman for aeroplane marks, so in 1947 dropping XIX for Spitfire Pr.19 and avoiding Seafire 47 in Roman completely. (Seafire XLVII, since you ask, Centurion.) Why cherry-pick some names or numbers and ignore other names or numbers? :shock:

Regards,

*They all usually get called T-6, C-47s or JRFs even when they're not, but one of the myriad designations for these two standard basic airframes - but they're all Harvards or Daks in Commonwealth service or Geese to everyone.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:07 pm

Bit more on the earlier USAAC/F A- designations for Model 14s here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FW_50w ... BO&f=false

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:18 pm

So now I have been told that the O stands for the aircraft having been built inn the Lockheed Plant B and also that the O stands for Observation, the latter of which is what I thought it was as I had found that designator in my research though it was not connected to PBO when i found it.

Which is it? Patrol Bomber Observation?

And from this I assume it is a US Navy designation?

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:36 pm

Dave Homewood wrote:

So now I have been told that the O stands for the aircraft having been built inn the Lockheed Plant B and also that the O stands for Observation,

Sorry, my error - it's for Lockheed Plant B as 'O' occurs in the third place in the designator. It's 'O' for Observation only in the earlier part. flyingsailor and Randy's quoted ref explain. Apologies! I'll edit my earlier post to correct...

Quote:

And from this I assume it is a US Navy designation?

Don't assume, check.

The ref flyingsailor and I both posted (WIX member Randy's article) explains this minefield and gives the lists. PBO is a USN Designation, and the only US Navy designation for the type. US Army Hudsons were A-16 etc, as per my list above and the book ref I gave.

Regards,

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:44 pm

Thanks James, I had looked at the links and had already done a lot of googling trying to work it out, but find it all a bit confusing. Isn't asking on Wix considered as 'checking;?

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:57 pm

Dave Homewood wrote:

Thanks James, I had looked at the links and had already done a lot of googling trying to work it out, but find it all a bit confusing.

Randy's article made good sense to me (thanks Randy!) and gets bonus points by not pretending it's a sensible, foolproof system. If it takes 15 pages in a book to explain properly, as he says...

Quote:

Isn't asking on Wix considered as 'checking;?

Yeah, for a given value of 'checking' and my first answer is correct for a given value of 'correct'. :shock:

Cheers,

The Inspector · **Posted:** Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:14 am

And, when THAT makes sense, sit down and figure out just how many designators were applied to the basic DC-3 design depending upon who originally owned it (airlines not the military), engines, door locations, equipment, configuration of the cabin, then there's the Naval desigantions-----and foreign services that used the 'GOONEY', Soviet copies both licensed and pirated, or had the designator changed so 'it won't appear to be a Yankee airplane' like the Japanese built versions-

JDK · **Posted:** Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:44 am

Indeed, Inspector as I touched on above. For instance, they're Dakotas across the British Commonwealth, whether in RAF, RN, RAAF, RAN, RNZAF, SAAF, IAF, RCAF, or RCN (and others) service. If we take an average of two designations per service (a low measure of the USN USAAF alphabet soup) that's one name instead of SEVENTEEN more designations.

FWIW, it makes sense to me if a type is built or used by a separate nation it gets a different designation (names make more sense retained, assuming the language can cope - the problem with car names). If a type is radically different in equipment for a job, certainly it need be different; but a grab-bag of alphabet soup for different arms using the same machine, or minor equipment differences? It's just silly.

But then I can only remember one of the two structural difference between a Supermarine Seagull V and a Walrus... :lol:

aerovin · **Posted:** Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:48 am

Then, of course, the Navy PB-1W and PB-1G (Army B-17), neither of which were built by Boeing but would be implied by the designation. But, a Boeing design, just like the Vought Corsair built by Vought was the F4U but the same airplane built by Goodyear was the FG. Clear to me.

jdvoss · **Posted:** Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:06 am

OK, here is a bit of clarification on the "O" in PBO. Prior to 1962 the USN aircraft designation system was unique and actually was quite informative. The last letter in an aircraft type indicated the manufacturer. For example "A" in F2A Buffalo meant it was constructed by Brewster, "B" stood for Boeing(as in F4B), "C" stood for Curtiss (as in SB2C), and so on. "O" was assigned to Lockheed as in PBO Hudson, JO Electra, R5O Lodestar, and "V" was assigned to Vega, a subsidiary of Lockheed, who constructed the PV Ventura. When WWII ended Lockheed formally absorbed Vega Aircraft Corp into their organization and dropped the usage of the "O" for naval aircraft and picked up the "V" usage from the Vega merge for all future naval aircraft (e.g P2V Nepune, R7V Super Connie, WV Warning Star). The manufactiurers code letter was assigned by the Dept of the Navy.

Note:As there were more naval aircraft manufacturers than letters in the alphabet multiple firms would sometimes be assigned the same last letter! For example PV Ventura was made by Vega, SNV Valiant was made by Vultee and the PBV Catalina (Canso) was made by Canadian-Vickers!! Presumably it was to keep the enemy confused. Must have been a good strategy because many people are still confused 70 years later!!

The Inspector · **Posted:** Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:17 am

One of my all time pre MacNamara designators was the FAIRCHILD C-119 in U.S. MARINES use as the R4Q2

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:44 am

I understand it a lot better now, thanks for all the posts. I still maintain it was a crazy, confusing system. Why not simply use the manufacturer's name like the rest of the world does rather than a code letter? That's the navy for you I guess.

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PBO - what does this designation mean?

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