Are New Warbird Members Out There?

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:49 pm

One thing that worries me about warbird flying and organizations, is whether there will be enough interest in it in the future. Think about this, What are some of the great classic things from the past? How about steam locomotives? Man there is some beef that would make a Skyraider look dainty, and some of it is fine machinery. But it is not really in the public eye anymore, doesn't draw much interest or support, it is just too far out of date. Yes, there are some fine static ones in museums and even a very few you can ride behind, but it is not much a part of life now. How about great old sailing ships? Same thing, some support, some interest, but not part of most people's life.

If you look at the CAF it is mostly old White guys. Even EAA Warbirds is a lot that way. Where are the large numbers of teenager and young 20s we need to keep this going? Where are the girls and young ladies, who you see at football games or maybe even Nascar? Minorites are perhaps a third of our population, but not in sport aviation for the most part.

I think we in warbirds really need to focus on recruiting younger and more diverse people in if there is to be a warbird future as it has been in the past. We need to get them out to the airport, in the airplanes, and in the air, not even just behind the fence at an airshow. It may not be easy. When EAA did the Young Eagles rides, I tried to promote it in the T-34 and T-6 groups without much success. There was every imaginable excuse, from real liability concerns to nonsense like the young person was going to grab the stick and cause a crash. Most of the old guys, with some exceptions, were not at all interested in sharing, even though it is so easy in a T-34. It may be that even if we try, to most young people the great old planes are just too far removed from their world to be cool. And of course cost is a big factor to those who do have the interest.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:16 am

I dont' know, a lot of my generation I wouldn't trust either, but I'm grateful that some of your old white guys who are in my squadron took a chance on me. Personally, I think as long as we can keep them flying there will be interest. However, if they all become static, that's it. Your point about liability issues is another major factor as is the very real factor of maintenance and fuel costs. Also, it's not so easy to get young folks into the airport anymore. The TSA would choke if things went back like they used to be - even just 15 years back or so.

Ryan

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11330

Robin Petgrave is an amazing individual and is providing great opportunities for minority kids (primarilly in the local area):

http://www.tamuseum.org/

You'll notice some warbirds in the background of the video and an emphasis on the Tuskeegee Airmen. Boeing supports this organization as well.

bootlegger · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:34 am

Im 42 now (not sure if thats young anymore). Ive been into aircraft since I was a little kid. I dont have a family link to aviation nor the income to make it happen. Im only interested in warbirds (not civil aircraft) so aviation was always out of my league. Ive tried twice to rescue derelict aircraft (2 Tigermoths and a Vampire). They are all still sitting there hidden away with the owners refusing to budge.
Recently a guy commissioned me to build him a 1929 Heath Baby bullet racer but he got Cancer and called it all off.
I picked up a set of plans for a 1917 Roland and bought two Gyspie Queen engines. That project may still go ahead. But still its not a WWII bird.
Even my Merlin powered hydro although a cool ride is still second prize.
So I have to torture myself at airshows with a dream that will probably never happen unless there is a miracle.
How can the youth of today even consider a chance of owning a warbird with only a dream? It easier to not even consider it and go back to the playstation.
I wish some grey haired guy had given me a chance when I was young.
I have a friend not far away that his Grandfather lit the fires to guide Kingsford Smith and the Southern Cross to land after his flight across the pacific. After he landed he took that kid for a joy flight.
That kid spent the rest of his life in aviation and his grandson still has his childhood scrapbook with a hand drawing of the Southern Cross, a picture of him with Smithy and his autograph.
Until this stuff is made attractive to kids, spark their imagination (like it did for you when you were young) and make it easily accessable there will always be a risk that a hobby will fade away. Dave

JDK · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:44 am

Some interesting presumptions there, Bill, which I'd disagree with.

The steam train scene is, as far as my limited understanding goes, very healthy, and compares well with the vintage aviation scene. Certainly in the UK and Australia there are significant numbers of thriving old railway systems, many of which have grown or expanded their lines or rolling stock in the last decade or so. There are two major vintage railways, including Puffing Billy, one of Victoria's main tourist attractions within an hour's drive of me. If I can spare a couple of hundred dollars, I can drive a steam locomotive, too.

Tall ships likewise are thriving, with more in active preservation across Europe (from the Med to Scandinavia) the US and Canada (inc the US Coastguard, IIRC, and Bluenose II) Australia, with replicas of HMB Endeavour, Jact Dyfkin, HMS Bounty and Enterpize all active around Australia as well as more modern original ships.

On the other hand I think another mistake we often make is assuming the 'entry age' for involvement with messing around with old machines 'should be' or is under 30. If you actually look at the volunteer ages on entry, many, I suspect the vast majority, get involved later in life, often on retirement when the efforts of family and earning their keep have become less overwhelming. Jokingly, I suspect the entry age for volunteering is 65! Many of those 65+ folks probably get another 5 - 10 years life because of getting hands on and out of the house. It's certainly no exaggeration to say I can think of a good dozen or so people who fit that description at several local organisations to me.

That said, I certainly think we need to encourage and arrange access to those under 20, to look at our longer term future; but we shouldn't be surprised if the drop out for a few decades while the do the earning/family thing. But they may be back.

The demographic represented on WIX is biased towards the younger end because WIX requires familiarity with the interweb; but even with that, I think there's a disproportionate number of less than 30 year olds here - and welcome.

WIX can therefore usefully provide a part time lifeline (or fix) for those unable to be more involved.

There are, of course, always a few scary kids who know more than we do. I had one in a school group the other week, and he made my hair stand on end...

Let's not forget that the tall ships, MVs aircraft, traction engines, steam trains and so forth are very very niche interests; they are and always will be small numbers, but I'm sanguine there's enough of them.

Cheers,

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:10 am

This has been a subject of interest to me for some time. WIX, arguably one of the most popular warbird forums, receives 4,000+ visitors a day. This may seem like a large number but think about how many people show up for and airshow. Typically that would be 10 times the number of visitors at least. But even that pales in comparison to a Nascar event or a football event. Even in its heyday the warbird movement can't come close to those types of numbers and support. As a movement we need to actively promote warbirds and history or we will find that one day congress will pass a bill and no warbirds or vintage aircraft will be allowed to fly.
The key to keeping the aircraft alive and the movement going is recruitment and inspiration. Drag your friends to an airshow even if they don't have an interest in it. Spend time educating them about what they are seeing. Do the same with your kids. Invite your kids friends and their parents along. Help people learn about the history of these aircraft and the people that flew them.
One project I had dreamed of doing is to create lesson plans for teachers that would give them the framework for including warbirds into their lessons. Wiether it be for history or for science class, giving them tools to use could be a stepping stone to inspire a child into aviation and an interest in the aircraft we all love. This project has stalled due to time constraints and the need of a teacher to be involved to help design the plan, but it is still possible.
Another project I was considering is Warbird Trading cards, something that would appeal to kids and teach them something as well. Again limited time and funds have put this on hold but it could be dusted off again at anytime.

There are lots of things we can do if we band together and combine our drive and passion. Heck, look what we did with the "Guns for Lil" project!

Any other suggestions?

mtpopejoy · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:02 am

I think getting the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) involved would be a great step to get the younger generation involved.

I have a co-worker who is a Cub Scout leader who I convinced to take his pack out to Selfridge Air Nat'l Guard base in Michigan to their small museum and am trying to talk him into contacting the Yankee Air Museum's education staff too.

Regards,
Mark

mtpopejoy · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:07 am

Bill Greenwood wrote:

BDK, that project by Robin sounds great, I just wish it was done in other places, and by many people. Minority teenagers could well be a fertile source for aviation if given access, especially the financial means. Maybe if we saw some famous leaders involved it would help. If Oprah started taking flight lessons or Tiger Woods,or Venus or a few years down the road Obama's daughters it might spread. But that's not what we have now.

That is what I was thinking Bill. If minority children could have a celebrity to do for aviation what Tiger Woods has done for golf and use the service that the Tuskeegee Airmenn provided during WWII as a sense of pride it could go along way to diversity in aviation.
Regards,
Mark

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:21 am

Mark, There used to be Air Scouts, I don't know the details of it. But now if you tried to have a flying thing for Scouts, I don't think the organization would let you do it because of liability.

When we took my Son's scout troop flying in our J3, we asked permission only from the parents and did not call it and official scout function. We also had no accident or incident, so no foul.

There is a group that comes here for critically ill kids. I offered to take them flying and the lady looked at me like I had tried to give them each a pit bull or an AK-47. She was polite, but the idea was way off base in her mental set and her world.

Mark, taking BSA or any kids to a static museum is ok, it is far better than nothing, especially if they can go inside some of the planes. BUT STILL, FOR MOST, IT IS LIKE GOING TO THE BAKERY TO WATCH SOMEONE ELSE EAT DONUTS. It is not the same, especially for active kids.

DenverWarbirdFan · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:26 am

mtpopejoy wrote:

I think getting the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) involved would be a great step to get the younger generation involved.

Funny you mention this, Mark. Like me, 2 of my best friends are Eagle Scouts and also pilots. My dad took a group of Cub Scouts on flights for Young Eagles in his Cherokee when I was younger. Turned out to be a great experience for all.

And Bill, after spending sometime with you at the Boulder airport, I'd hope you know I'm in the minority. I'm on the same page as the "old white men" when it comes to keeping the interest alive. This is living history, and I agree, isn't exclusive to warbirds.

Once all the brave men who flew these machines are gone, what will we have left to tell their stories?

Scott

k5083 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:28 am

I'd agree with Bill on the characteristics of warbird fans.

The parallel with steam trains and tall ships is somewhat appropriate. All three have a decent amount of visibility in the culture, are frequently seen in films and are associated with the same romantic feelings, but in terms of being involved in their operation, all three are tiny niche communities.

Diversity-wise, you can see what Bill means at a show like Thunder Over Michigan. Compare the demographics of the crowd with those of the nearest city, Detroit. Something might seem to be wrong with that picture.

But maybe I'll part company with Bill on the question of whether the small size and demographic homogeneity of the warbird crowd means that the warbird scene is in any sense threatened. As far as direct involvement, we are only talking about several hundred airplanes. A fairly small number of old white guys and their sons is sufficient to sustain their restoration and operation. It helps if they are rich white guys.

I find the notion that African-Americans need a role model of their own race to get into warbirds to attract their attention patronizing and condescending.

If we decide that we need greater diversity in the warbird movement -- or just that it would be nice -- we should look instead to what values and beliefs we are communicating and whether some of the constituencies we supposedly want to attract would find them hostile. We will never have trouble attracting the Boy Scouts, a conservative Christian paramilitary organization. But many of the values espoused by warbirders are a turn-off for large groups of people.

August

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:39 am

August, did you really mean to attack me as "patronizing and condescending" on the civil right issue? I could make a nasty point back at you on that matter if I wanted.
I don't care if you use Tiger Woods or Casper The Friendly Ghost, if you can sucessfully recruit young people into aviation, and that's young people of any and all races.
Perhaps you think that because I am from the South or that I think O J was and is scum, that you assume I am racist. Not much proof there.
I think it is marketing logic as well as fact that Tiger and Venus, Serena have brought more minorities into their sports.
And Oprah came to mind because she can draw thousands to an event just on her popularity, as she did in the campaign. Maybe Molly Cyrus would be good, I am not that informed on the teen set. Anyway, it is not Harrison Ford.

mtpopejoy · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:43 am

I wish the EAA would try and push the Young Eagles program again. Like you said Bill I am sure there will be a lot of kicking and screaming but maybe for the diehards that really want to promote aviation to children the EAA could provide an incentive, i.e. free lifetime membership for doing flights (if this was already tried I don't know).

I know there are enough of the "old white men" out there who want to pass this on to the younger generation.

I can still remember my Young Eagles flight like it was yesterday. It was 14 years ago, I was 14 then. One of the most uncomfortable flights I have been on but one I will never forget and will always get a smile on my face when I think about cramming myself into the back seat of that small 2 seat, home built acro aircraft.

Also, I think getting FBO's involved in it would be beneficial as well. Providing fuel and possibly flight school aircraft to be used may provide a decent return on investment if these youngsters end up taking flight instruction from that FBO.

Just my $0.02 I know I am young and nieve but I try.
Regards,
Mark

mtpopejoy · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:53 am

August,

I think that having a role model is beneficial to getting into any hobby, past time, etc. no matter what color, creed, religion etc.

It is my thinking that many of us here on WIX would have never gotten bit by the Warbird bug had it not been for a positive role model introducing us to it.

I know this was true for me. Had it not been for my Grandfather:
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------
serving in WWII and talking about B-24s and B-25s, B-26s and P-47s as well as 6 gentlemen in perfectly tailored blue suits flying blue jets I would have never gotten the bug.

Regards,
Mark

Ztex · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:01 am

As a 20 year old I went to a small airshow with my uncle, the B-24 vet.

There I paid $25 of my dollars and $50 of my uncles money to go for a B-17 flight. I found out that the B-17 was based near my home town. They invited me to come out and help. I spent my first day sitting on the ground with a utility knife and some gasket material making rocker arm gaskets. They had a job to do, asked if I could handle it, and put me to work...immediately! I was in! A dream come true!...as long as I showed up every Saturday and paid my oil stained dues. I went on flights around the patch, training and airshows.

I was flying myself too! Got my Private and Instrument rating. Raring to go. (A hint of a promise that if I got my multi..I might...just might, get some stick time in the 17 !!!!!!!! Whoa Momma! )

For two years I was IN! Then it happened..I got married, then got laid off, worked for no money, then had a kid. Life happened. I would not trade my wife and kid for any airplane.

Along in there another museum started with the Sabres, a Huey, a T-6 and some other stuff. A mile from the house. Started hanging around there and did some more airshows and warbird rides! Too many chiefs later and they were gone...so was my second chance.

Here I am some 20 plus years later...itching to get back in.
Not enough money to do it myself and not enough time with current commitments to get back on the b-17...yet...after the boy leaves the nest, maybe.

My point is that I was welcomed in to the fold as a young man and was given a chance to work and play with warbirds. The folks involved saw my passion and let me in. That's what it takes in the warbird community opening up to some interested folks. It also take those interested folks making a commitment to do it right, put in the grunt work to show they mean it.

The same lament is heard in the target shooting community, the tall ship in Galveston (sailing in general is seen a boring) is having trouble with youth interest. I'm a bit of a model rail roader too. That hobby is shrinking. as are model rockets and R/C airplanes..etc. Not enough digital stuff there I guess.
There are a lot of 20 something's that are all about instant gratification...I don't think this is a new thing...just a fact of life...most of us at 20 have distractions and some have no clue. There are many folks that could care less about history at all..."it happened when? and that affects me, how?"
It takes the right kind of youth to do this warbird thing...they are out there..we just have to be ready to give them a chance...see if they are real or not. It's hard to tell from the first visit...I am a Scoutmaster for a troop of 40 or so boys...some have greatness in them others don't..occasionally they blossom into real human beings! We have put forth the idea of an aviation weekend, young eagles etc several times and the boys have no interest...I'll keep trying)
Gotta invest time in the youth...it's their only hope.

As far as aviation goes...I may never get back in the cockpit. If prices continue to rise like they have it may forever be out of reach. Airplane costs are ridiculous compared to my income. Fuel cost? Maintenance? Annual?...hanger... Not on my meager income.
It would be nice to go to Jr. Burchinal's place and fire up the Mustang for $20....heck a Cessna discovery flight is now $50. With P-51's at a couple of million...it ain't happening for me.

But there is someone out there with the cash and the passion to keep flying them for many years to come.

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