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 Post subject: "Icebox" Rivet Supplier
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:31 am 
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Can anybody recommend a good supplier for DD "icebox" rivets? I'm looking for some fairly large (3/16), antique, AN430 type ones.

Dan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Dan,
How much experience do you have with DD rivets?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:14 pm 
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I wouldn't use them. An "E" rivet is a direct replacement and doesn't need to be heat treated, you shoot then as is.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:03 pm 
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The Inspector wrote:
Dan,
How much experience do you have with DD rivets?


That's easy - virtually none! I understand the theory and the "why", and why in this case we can't sub up to an AD rivet, but my role in this job is strictly "Purchasing" and "Apprentice" - our local sheet metal and Structures guy is the actual man in charge (I'm smart enough to know when to call in a "ringer" (usually!) But he's a little skeptical about being able to find usable, AN430 icebox rivets - AN430DD6-6 to be exact. I don't want to use an E rivet because they're pretty much a one shot rivet and if they're not done perfectly on the first burst there's no second chance. And these are quite a visible rivet (Stearman wing strut inner plates) so they need to have the correct heads. So, airworthiness first, appearance second... cost last - as usual! :D

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:07 pm 
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That's exactly where I was going-DD's are very temperature sensitive and way too much effort in that they can only be struck once, attempt to 'fix' a high or tipped head and it will crack and need drilled out plus there's the need for a commercial -40f or lower freezer-yadda yadda go with the E rivets. And make certain that both the fastener 'set' and your bucking bar are clean and have no tape or crud on them, whatever is on either the set or the bar will transfer to the driven fastener because they go 'plastic' while being driven, which is how they fill the hole. Contrary to 'old wives tales' tape will NOT help the set stay put, proper technique is the only thing that will. Make sure your bucking surface is clean, clear, and well polished for the same reasons. In the coure of building a wing spar set, Boeing probably tosses out 100# of normalized (room temp) DD rivets per spar set. Proper technique is like learning to play a musical instrument, practice, practice, practice. Also make sure the set is THE CORRECT ONE for the fastener type and size being shot otherwise you'll 'ring' the head or cut the structure.

You need to become aware and atuned to the fact that a rivet will tell you how it's doing as you shoot it, when the tone of shooting goes from initially sharp to flat (around 2 to 3 1/4 seconds) stop shooting! A well working team of shooter and bucker is pure music to hear! About every 20 seconds they shoot another fastener braap....braap...braap-remember this is actually art as much as anything else. :P Use a rivet gun and bar that are up to the job, too small will cause too many errors and too big will cause too much damage.

Were you aware there are at least three types of one piece, driven mechanical fasteners in aviation? On the West Coast we call them 'RIVETS' in the South they are called 'RIVITS' and in the mid West they are called 'RIVUTS'. :lol: :lol:

We will not speak here of the dreaded and feared by novices, MONEL rivet which has its own ju-ju. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Just to throw an extra curve into the mix, these are most likely going to have to be back riveted, and indirectly! I actually like riveting, and you're quite correct, it is probably more art than science. I grew up in an aviation family where my father was an AME and a Structures guy so I spent a lot of time bucking, and my size (then) was apparently handy. I can tell you first hand what the inside of many different floats and fuselage tail cones look like! The only time I ever had anything to do with icebox rivets though was finding a box of them in the deep freeze for a C-46 that the old man was repairing (Mother was not pleased!) :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:50 pm 
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At least you hopefully won't have to do any NACA riveting, say 'NACA RIVETING' out loud around a bunch of old commercial airline tin guys and the ones who shiver and run or say rude things about your ancestors are ex DC-8 structures guys. (The round manufactured heads went inside and were driven, the bucktails were bucked into external countersinks in the outer surface of the skins of 7075-T6)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Eeeewww....... I've heard of those things, but I thought they were just stories to scare me out of the hangars and to keep me in school!! :Hangman:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:30 am 
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I've used DD rivets in changing DC3 wing attach angles years ago. They drive real nice - nothing to be scared of. Where you would find them these days is a very good question....


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Monels are fun If you also enjoy slamming your hand in the car door, They're sort of like shooting wheel bearing grease, you never develop a 'feel' for them you just listen to the rivets 'tone' as you shoot them. They work harden (actually shooting them completes the heat treating of the material) and they get harder than Martian Algebra, they won't take retrikes as they WILL crack, and they are just worlds of fun to try to drill out as any gaps between parts will extrude shank into the gap and you'll destroy the hole (and maybe the parts too) extracting the rivet shank because it won't relax or cave in like aluminum will as you drive the shanks out. Overdriving will cause the bucktails to crack, and since they are 'odd' to shoot, it's easy to die mark or cut the heads.

Bimetals are even more fun, but unless you are building a B-1 I doubt you'll ever encounter a bimetal rivet.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:21 pm 
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I've had only very, very limited experience with Monel rivets, but I lucked out - I had to shoot exactly four of them when I rebuilt a pair of A-7 mag switches and all four passed inspection by our sheet metal man at work. About as easy a project as you could get, but, as they say, better lucky than good! :D

I had a bit of fun with a friend of mine this summer when we were redoing the baffling on a Cessna 120. After we took all the old baffling apart and copied it we gathered up some junk pieces and I had him drilling, de-burring, and riveting the junk back together for practice before we did the new stuff. After he starting getting the hang of driving 1/8th AD rivets I'd periodically hand him a soft "A" rivet! The look of bewilderment on his face was priceless when the rivet would just almost instantly flatten out into nothing! After awhile he realized he was being had, but he now has a very good grasp of head markings! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Well said Inspector about the art of shooting rivets!!

I replaced 4 crown skins on a 767 years (18-20) ago, me and my partner hardly ever said a word to each other once we were "in the groove". Out of a six or eight foot line of rivets, we only had to reshoot about 4 rivets. We would press on until the line was finished and then go back to drill and reshoot, 'cause once you're in the groove you don't want to stop.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:07 pm 
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What are E rivet head styles like? Similar to AN470 Universals?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:13 pm 
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"E" rivets come in all of the rivet styles. They have a small circle as a marking.
AN470E or MS20470E (MS20470) is the newest designation.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:27 pm 
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b29flteng wrote:
"E" rivets come in all of the rivet styles. They have a small circle as a marking.
AN470E or MS20470E (MS20470) is the newest designation.



Really? I've never used any and I have heard some less than favorable reviews of them, but they're a direct replacement for DD rivets - same shear strength?

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Last edited by Dan Jones on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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