F6F-3 CAD Question Thread

[rtwpsom2]

Similar to my P-51 question thread, I am working on the CAD for an F6F-3 Hellcat and will have more than a few questions to ask. I have recieved the drawings and have been going over them and found that the index that is included does not actually reference the rolls that are included with the Smithsonian set. I have a feeling they are for the NARA set, but I am not sure. Anyway, the first thing I need to do is create an index for them. I have created a Google Docs spreadsheet which you can view here. If anyone has the drawings and is interested in contributing to the spreadsheet to help the work progress faster, please PM me and let me know, I could use all the help I can get, and I am sure the community would be very appreciative.

[N77657]

I took a look at your spreadsheet. I see you are making the list according to the microfilm roll frame number. I was wondering if you find it easier to work this way rather than making the list by part number. I've done this for the P-47 and did the same thing you did, but I'm constantly looking for what roll/frame the drawing is on.

Bill

[rtwpsom2]

Well, to give you an idea of my thought process here, I have two quantities that I am trying to create an association between, roll number and drawing number. Everything else is fluff, important fluff, but fluff nonetheless. Now we are talking nearly 9,000 drawings here and doing them all individually is going to take a ton of work, so I need to automate the process as much as possible.

Let's look at drawing numbers and see what we know about them. We know there are at least three types; G, SP, and numerical. And of those not all of them are used.

Roll numbers, on the other hand, we know a lot more about. We know exactly how many rolls and what their names are. I can scroll to the last roll drawing and I know how many drawings will be on the roll. In most spreadsheet programs you can define two fields in a column and then select them and drag down on the lower right corner to create a pattern in the fields below. Using that I can fill out one complete column just by dragging, so obviously that is the much easier choice for organizing. I just did half my work in one operation. Then I just have to look at each drawing in order and type in a number associated with it. We are automating the process to make it go as quickly as possible. If we then want to add in titles and other info we can go back and do that, but the most important information is now compiled, we have associated a drawing number with a roll number.

Now does this mean I don't want to put them in numerical order by drawing? Hells to the no. But once all is said and done we can take all the info we have produced and copy/paste it into a new sheet and then sort it by numerical order of the drawing number. Easy peasy. The same trick works in Excel, too. But put the info in a separate spreadsheet first, you don't want to risk messing up all the info you just painstaking compiled by forgetting to check a tick mark or something.

[rtwpsom2]

Jim and I finished the drawing index last night (him more so than me). I copied the data into some new pages and sorted them by part number so we now have a part number to roll number index too. Here is the link again in case anyone needs it.

I also am going to link to this thread in my blog so anyone who has questions or comments can put them in here. That way the information stays centrally located and easier to find. I don't think I am going to post in here every single time I update the blog, I hate being that guy who goes around and just advertises in every forum he knows so he can get page hits. Feel free to check for new posts as often as you like, but I don't feel right shoving it in anyone's face. If anyone wants a notification of when I update, then friend me on google plus (this username at gmail.com). I have a friend group I send notifications to whenever I post. Or you can follow it and whatever RSS feeder you use will notify you.

Also, if anyone has any info on this plane, please let me know, Jim has selected it as the version he wants to model, so I could use some help if I want to do any sort of accurate markings.

[Helicopter Repairman]

Also, if anyone has any info on this plane please let me know...

According to Squadron/Signal “F6F Hellcat in Action” page 18, the F6F (#30) in your photo is from VF-1 assigned to the Yorktown (CV-10). On 9-9-44 it landed gear up due to hydraulic system damage from gunfire. The damage to the right wing occurred when it struck a 5” gun mount.

It looks like a late production F6F-3, as the cowling lacks the fairing over the stacks and the lower cowl flaps are not present. The caption says it has the later type windshield, but it looks like the earlier one with the extra framing and curved front panel to me.

A video of this event can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmxh9RPjZUg

The film clip with this Hellcat begins at the 3:07 time frame.

[rtwpsom2]

Thanks HR, I appreciate it. Jim was also able to come up with some info on it:

F6F-3 BuNo 41441 damaged by Zeros during an attack on Iwo Jima 15 Jun 44. Pilot was Ens. Alden "Silas" Morner of VF-1 & contrary what the video said his leg wasn't almost shot off. Bullet or shrapnel took a chunk out of one heel. He was credited with 2 Zeros destroyed & 1 Zero probable on that flight.

I still don't know how much I will be able to do markings so I think it mainly matters to the exact variant I will be doing. But anyway, thanks for looking that up for me. I have the book ordered now along with the walkaround one from Squadron.

[Helicopter Repairman]

Interesting info on the pilot of #30 and that incident. 15 June ‘44 is far removed from the 9 September ’44 date given in the Squadron/Signal book!

I started a dash 3 Hellcat for MS Flight Simulator back in March of this year. I’m working from the IPC (AN01-85FB-4) for interior detail, some five-view drawings by Dana Bell (said to be adapted from factory Grumman Drawings) for the exterior, and hundreds of photos. That’s more than enough to do a good job for addon game content.

The drawings mentioned above are from "F6F Hellcat in detail & scale" by Bert Kinzey. It also has an interview he did with Captain David McCampbell in 1987. I picked it up on Amazon.

I read on your blog that SolidWorks doesn’t do textures - or doesn’t do them well, and you were concerned about that with regard to camouflage markings. You might want to consider a dash 5 Hellcat in the Glossy Sea Blue paint scheme rather than the three-tone camouflage that uses non-spec white, intermediate blue, and sea blue with meandering lines.

The later paint job is essentially dark blue and white for everything, and material colors should handle that just fine. I’m using separate geometry for the (gigantic!) national insignia on my model’s fuselage; I do that with many of the detail markings (especially small stenciled markings) as that allows for a larger texture size, clarity of text, and less distortion than painting directly on parts does. To look good, the markings need to exactly match the underlying geometry; I use a Boolean cut for that. Direct X has a feature where parts with a material named ZBIAS_N (where “N” is the amount of offset, for instance ZBIAS_1) will be drawn before adjacent ones, so as seen in the game the markings are indistinguishable as separate entities, like decals on a plastic model.

I can certainly understand being more interested in the F6F-3; it has more appeal to me as a modeler, especially the three-tone paint and the older type windshield with more framing and the armored glass a separate part inside the cockpit. It’s the fussy detail oriented bits that make it fun.

Anyway, best of luck to you with your project!

[Jim MacDonald]

Helicopter Repairman,

I was surprised how far off the Squadron/Signal caption was off on the date of #30's crash. I have the combat report for that flight & had talked to Silas Morner many years ago about that mission. Fighting One was aboard the Yorktown until 2 Aug 44, when they returned to the States. Not sure where the book came up with the Sept date as the Yorktown was in the States until Oct 44 undergoing overhaul.

Mac

[Helicopter Repairman]

I was surprised how far off the Squadron/Signal caption was off on the date of #30's crash. I have the combat report for that flight & had talked to Silas Morner many years ago about that mission. Fighting One was aboard the Yorktown until 2 Aug 44, when they returned to the States. Not sure where the book came up with the Sept date as the Yorktown was in the States until Oct 44 undergoing overhaul.

Yeah, I’m going to blame the fog of war. Seriously though, it was published in 1980, and research was much more difficult in the pre-internet era. It could also be a mistake by the publisher or typesetter or something like that.

I started collecting the Squadron/Signal books in the early 80’s, and have enjoyed all of them. A great resource and fun to read.

[rtwpsom2]

Where can I find technical drawings for the engine and prop blade for the F6F?

[Jim MacDonald]

Rob,

Email inbound,

Jim

[rtwpsom2]

For the record, Jim sent me three drawings from the engine repair manual that show a lot of the external dimensions of the engine and carburetor. Very useful and if I don't find the original part drawings I can at least use them to craft a reasonable facsimile, but for obvious reasons it would be nice to find the archive rolls for the engine and prop.

[Slamdance]

Hey Rob. I stumbled onto WIX and your blog early this morning. I have never registered so fast to a forum. I have been trying to find production drawings for the F6F. After reading there are thousands I now understand why they are not just sitting somewhere waiting for me to download. Anyway I'll cut to the chase.
I am in need of detailed cockpit production drawings down to the rivet. I'm not much on spreadsheets ( God bless you and Jim) but I do work extensively in ACAD 3D and Inventor. I would love to help and in turn we would have a "win-win" situation. I no sometimes Solidworks guys and ACAD guys throw rocks at each other but the Hellcat is 70 this year (making her priority) and exporting to .stp is a breeze. If your like me you probable like to keep a close rain on your model. But if I can get the cockpit files I would be willing to work on wing ribs, tail wheel, etc..............let me know. Thanks

P.S. Modeling the cockpit will happen on my end if I have to scale from photos alone....................

[rtwpsom2]

Hi SD, thanks for the compliments. While it would be tempting to get your help, the problem arises that I need the models to be associative and the parts would all lose associativity when they translate between ACAD/INv and SW. Aside from that I don't typically share my CAD like I do drawings and images. I am pretty sure you can imagine why. Jim has been encouraging me to market the drawings I do for him when I am done, I hadn't really planned to, but maybe I should in light of the lack of drawings commercially available.

[Slamdance]

Rob, Thanks for the response. I have no experience with SW but if one imports a part into an assembly(inventor) the option to associate is there. With that said I would agree that a labor of love is just that. I have yet to find even simple dimensions on the cockpit. As I stated before I am Hellbent (Pun intended) on rendering the cockpit. If you willing to share a sheet at a time you would receive a file in return formatted in your favorite extension with the option to use or not. As an industrial designer I know all to well what one misrepresented part can do to an assemble or a project but I'm doing my best not to sound desperate. Of course there's always the option of the good old fashion monetary system but I surmise those 9000 sheets include at least a few hundred cockpit files A dollar a pop that would send my project into Marianas. Being new to the sight I have yet to figure out how to post an image of my work' but I'll look into uploading some. Again I appreciate your response.

Jody Medlin
C.F.P.S.