O-1 annual

[Invader26]

Hi guys, I'm looking for a bit of advice re the amount of hours that should be spent on an annual for an O-1G Bird Dog.

My aircraft is in good condition and required a new battery, a repair to a rocket rail bracket and brake master cylinders redone [I supplied the kit and battery]

The dude hit me for 49.5 hrs labour for the annual plus brakes 17hrs and repairs etc a couple of hours.

Any thoughts?

[ProfromDover]

Not having seen the logbook entry as to what was involved this seems a bit sporty.

I usually plan, for a fixed gear, fixed pitch, monoplane about 16-18 hours to open up and close the aircraft to accomplish just the inspection. All other work is over and above. The inspection includes oil and filter changes as well as wheel bearing repack.

Two day (17 hours) to replace seals in master cylinders sounds like a public works job...

That being said I had a customer in last year with an aircraft that was FBO maintained. Unfortunately the FBO was pencil whipping the annuals. The owner left my shop with an $8000 bill. This year that same owner's annual was about, well, 16-18 hours...

[Invader26]

Thanks Bill.

Next year I'd drop her in to your place but the ferry costs might be a bit much from Brisbane....

[ProfromDover]

I have some contacts in the Brisbane, OZ area. PM me and I will forward your name to my contacts there. Maybe they can help you out sourcing another shop. Cheers

[Enemy Ace]

While the time spent sounds maybe a little high the 0-2 /337 is not a simple airplane and to properly do a REAL annual would take a week. I'm talking about putting tensiometers on all cables, checking gear and door riggings, etc etc.
Engines should take a day per with no real problems to resolve.
Gear extension/retraction and proper lubing etc. would eat up another day.
Taking off all insp. panels, interior, etc and then putting it all back together eats a day on each end.
AD research and paperwork - another day.
quite a lot of time used to be spent in my shop just getting things clean enough so that they could be inspected and worked on.
Another thing to keep in mind is that very few IA's are 20 year old's with a surplus of energy. Older guys just take a little longer to get things done.
This really doesn't sound that bad of annual if this was a first time visit. Your next visit should be cheaper.
Just my 0-2 cents worth. -Robert

[Enemy Ace]

Well ignore the above, for some reason I thought we were talking about 0-2's.
Time for me to call it quits for today I guess.

[ProfromDover]

Hey, it's all good info, but hey what's this?

"Another thing to keep in mind is that very few IA's are 20 year old's with a surplus of energy. Older guys just take a little longer to get things done."

I'm an older guy! I'm at 110% throttle outrunning a lot of younger folks. Hope to do it to my dying day!...

Yup, I'd like to get into an O-2/337 someday. I've always believed they are a great value for the perfomance of the aircraft. Sort of like a 210 with an extra engine.

Keep flying!

[LadyO2Pilot]

Yup, I'd like to get into an O-2/337 someday. I've always believed they are a great value for the perfomance of the aircraft. Sort of like a 210 with an extra engine.

Does have great efficient fuel burn for a twin......civilian 337 may have have great performance numbers..I don't really know. The military O-2 is heavier among other things and lives up to the nickname given by the FACs in Nam...... "SKY PIG" But I love my little piggie plane

Bill, I will contact you back channel and we'll talk about you getting into one in this next year if you wish !!!

[Sabremech]

Was it the first time you've taken it to this mechanic? If so, that could explain the hours as it's an airplane that he hasn't seen and can't take for granted that it's been maintained correctly. I'll say that the first time I do an inspection on a new to me aircraft, that these hours don't seem out of line.
From a mechanics perspective, our certificates come with a lot of training, cost and responsibilty. That shouldn't equate to cheap annual signoffs for pilots and aircraft owners.
David

[tinbender2]

Was it the first time you've taken it to this mechanic? If so, that could explain the hours as it's an airplane that he hasn't seen and can't take for granted that it's been maintained correctly. I'll say that the first time I do an inspection on a new to me aircraft, that these hours don't seem out of line.
From a mechanics perspective, our certificates come with a lot of training, cost and responsibilty. That shouldn't equate to cheap annual signoffs for pilots and aircraft owners.
David

I agree that a new-to-me aircraft takes more time for me to determine it's condition, but I don't expect the customer to pay for my learning, unless it is previously agreed on. I may add a few extra hours for an inspection quote, if I am unfamiliar with the aircraft, but it is still the owner's choice to accept/reject my offer.


IMO, the general physical condition of GA aircraft has been constantly declining for decades. It is not unusual to find a fair number of suspect repairs, covered up damage, and logbook discrepancies that require extra time to resolve, and owners know up front that they will be billed for it.


I hear ya on the cheap pencil-whipping signoffs. I still get the "$1500 annual" expectation from owners, even with thrashed 40 year old complex twins. Unfortunately, more and more shops have sunk to that level, just to survive. We are seeing companies with several bizjets, price shopping and hardballing shops to get prices that are about 65% of what they paid five years ago. Quality of workmanship isn't even a consideration anymore. I had a Caravan in for inspection, that had previously been maintained for years by a competitor. Many of the inspection panels still had unblemished factory paint, never opened since first flight. The owners didn't care. They got inspections signed off for 1/3rd of what a real inspection cost.

[LadyO2Pilot]

From a mechanics perspective, our certificates come with a lot of training, cost and responsibilty. That shouldn't equate to cheap annual signoffs for pilots and aircraft owners.

David...that is so true. I as an owner would never advocate or accept a pencil whipped annual. I was lucky that my original IP is also an IA and when he taught me to fly, he taught me maintenance. We have worked on CAF planes, his own personal planes and now my personal for many years. Would I pay him more if he did the whole annual for me, absolutely. But I do all the grunt work which saves me money. If I'm tired and ask if he will help or just do something, he is very fond of saying "Do you want to pay me or pay yourself?" Puts it in perspective. We both know my limitations and I do not get into the areas in which he needs to do the work.

But there are mechanics that overcharge. I had someone charge me 12 hrs labor @ $75 per to time a mag...one mag and I had removed all the rear cowlings prior (and those are much harder than the front). I also replaced all the cowlings after the timing. That was excessive. Especially when my other IA and I have done both engines including removing all cowlings in about 2 hrs.
Apart from this experience, all in all, I have been lucky with others who have worked on the plane beside my normal IA.

[N3Njeff]

From a mechanics perspective, our certificates come with a lot of training, cost and responsibilty. That shouldn't equate to cheap annual signoffs for pilots and aircraft owners.

David...that is so true. I as an owner would never advocate or accept a pencil whipped annual. I was lucky that my original IP is also an IA and when he taught me to fly, he taught me maintenance. We have worked on CAF planes, his own personal planes and now my personal for many years. Would I pay him more if he did the whole annual for me, absolutely. But I do all the grunt work which saves me money. If I'm tired and ask if he will help or just do something, he is very fond of saying "Do you want to pay me or pay yourself?" Puts it in perspective. We both know my limitations and I do not get into the areas in which he needs to do the work.

But there are mechanics that overcharge. I had someone charge me 12 hrs labor @ $75 per to time a mag...one mag and I had removed all the rear cowlings prior (and those are much harder than the front). I also replaced all the cowlings after the timing. That was excessive. Especially when my other IA and I have done both engines including removing all cowlings in about 2 hrs.
Apart from this experience, all in all, I have been lucky with others who have worked on the plane beside my normal IA.

This is why I can't start my own business..............."Vietnam Veteran O-2...............No charge"

[Invader26]

As a former regional airline owner I know a bit about overheads and training and compliance. The one thing I did not and still don't like are people "practicing" on my aircraft. When I go to a licenced shop the hourly rate is not the issue to me [generally speaking] it is the way they go about the business. People might pencil whip the books but I've seen mechanics pencil whip the time sheets too often...

[Sabremech]

With your background, I'm surprised that you're asking this question about your maint costs. Have you asked the mechanic or the maint shop about your concerns? Filling out your time sheet doesn't constitute pencil whipping or that it automatically goes on your bill (revenue vs non renevue time).
David

[CAPFlyer]

Sabre, as a guy who worked at a US Part 121 airline, I can tell you that maintenance in a 121 outfit (i.e. Regional Airline) and personal aircraft maintenance are handled totally different on all levels, so I applaud him for asking here about it before going to his mechanic and potentially having major egg on his face.

In my experience, even between doing Part 141 compliant/major flight school maintenance program and your typical private owner is massively different. A "100 hour check" on a Cessna 172 can be three different things with three different costs, just depending on the operation/regulation it's being done for. I have seen the work cards for a Cessna 172SP 100 hour that is Cessna's recommended for a private operator. It's about 1/2 of what it was at a Major 141 Flight School operation I rented from in Colorado, and 1/3 of what Civil Air Patrol's 100 hour program is. That's not to say any one is any less of a "good inspection" than the other, only that the level of inspection done is scaled to the type of wear-and-tear the aircraft sees in those different situations - relatively gentle single-owner operations (mainly A-to-B), heavy-duty takeoff & landing work and maneuvering (Flight School), or lots of low-level, dense air maneuvering for extended periods (Civil Air Patrol).

Last edited by CAPFlyer on Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.