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Bout Time Someones Stands Up
https://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=44057		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Shay [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Bout Time Someones Stands Up
For the Marines in the news for urinating.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Author:  cooper9411 [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
[quote="Shay"]For the Marines in the news for urinating.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis[/quo


Just makes me wonder :?
Author:  The Inspector [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
All I am going to say in this matter is, those Marines violated the Geneva Convention which technically makes them war criminals and you would think Mr. 'My security clearance exceeds the Presidents' would know that minor fact.
Author:  CAPFlyer [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
Geneva Convention doesn't necessarily apply in a case when fighting against non-uniformed combatants for one, for 2, they're still kids. Too many people lately have forgotten that most of our fighting forces over there are under the age of 25. That was me just a few years ago. I wasn't in the military, but I know I was (and really still am) fairly immature and I can only imagine how that'd wear on someone who's having to grow up while people are trying to kill you on a daily basis just because you are there and you're trying to prevent these people from killing their fellow countrymen because they dare to want something more than living in constant fear.
Author:  The Inspector [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
Read the text of the 4th Convention about do's and don't regarding civilians living or dead and debasement of them.
If you are in the U.S. Military, you are bound by the conventions restrictions.
Kids or not, these are very serious items. I'm not defending in any way the civilians or their actions, but if the roles had been reversed who would be screaming for heads to roll and buckets of blood? Their biggest mistake was putting the video on the net, it took the Army a while to find little Billy Calley after Mi Lai but they did find him and put him in Levenworth for exactly the same sort of actions.
Author:  Enemy Ace [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
Sorry, but I think Mr. Inspector is right.
If nothing else seriously damages the image of the U.S. Military and specifically the USMC. And at this time the military and the USA do not need further embarassment.
In this day and age one can never forget that you may be on camera, wherever you are. To have done that KNOWING there was a record of it was pure stupidity.
Author:  cooper9411 [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
:?
Author:  cooper9411 [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
:?
Author:  CAPFlyer [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
Sorry, but non-uniformed combatants are not civilians and thus not protected as such. Read the 4th Convention carefully. It is careful to distinguish that the only people protected are those whom are not involved in combat operations. Shooting at a soldier makes you a combatant, however, you are also not a party to a State, which means that the Conventions do not apply to you unless a special agreement between you (or your organization) and those you are fighting has been reached. The thing that's been at odds since operations began in Afghanistan and Iraq is that the "resistances" in these cases aren't always associated with a State or former State government, meaning that they fall into an undefined area of the Conventions, thus it's pretty much up to the Coalition governments how to handle it, but considering that even the only identifiable "resistance", the Taliban, has frequently and publically violated the Geneva Conventions in the past, they have annulled any chance that protected status would be conferred to them as they are no longer the recognized government of Afghanistan and have been denounced by the former Taliban whom are participating in the new government, effectively making them a Stateless rogue, and thus not protected.
Author:  CAPFlyer [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
Enemy Ace wrote:
Sorry, but I think Mr. Inspector is right.
If nothing else seriously damages the image of the U.S. Military and specifically the USMC. And at this time the military and the USA do not need further embarassment.
In this day and age one can never forget that you may be on camera, wherever you are. To have done that KNOWING there was a record of it was pure stupidity.


Again, when you were a teenager, did you do stupid things? Probably. I know I did. I know tons of teens do very stupid things on camera and specifically for the camera, all I have to do is load up YouTube or turn on the TV and watch for 30 minutes and I'll see tons of examples. Immature people do immature things. These guys were immature kids when they signed up and while their training helps, you throw them into combat where they see their friends get mauled and killed and they see on a daily basis the brutality to innocent civilians, that immaturity can't be fully repressed.

BTW, there are multiple reports of Allied soldiers urinating on dead Japanese and Germans during WWII and the same thing happening in Korea and Vietnam. It's nothing new. And in those cases, the soldiers were disciplined for their actions. But there was compassion shown to them because they were just kids and not brought before an international tribunal on charges of war crimes because there wasn't premeditation. There is nothing in this incident to prove that it's no different here. The guys were stupid. They'll get disciplined. The black eye in my mind is on the person who thought it was the right thing to put it out on the internet for the world to see instead of sending it through the proper channels to be dealt with properly.
Author:  B-17 guy [ Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
CAPFlyer wrote:
Geneva Convention doesn't necessarily apply in a case when fighting against non-uniformed combatants for one, for 2, they're still kids. Too many people lately have forgotten that most of our fighting forces over there are under the age of 25. That was me just a few years ago. I wasn't in the military, but I know I was (and really still am) fairly immature and I can only imagine how that'd wear on someone who's having to grow up while people are trying to kill you on a daily basis just because you are there and you're trying to prevent these people from killing their fellow countrymen because they dare to want something more than living in constant fear.


No offense to you, but you said yourself you were not in the military so you dont know what you are talking about then. There simply is no excuse for what these marines did, period. Had you been in the military you would know that as it is nailed into your head from day one. And wether or not the geneva convention applies to the non uniformed combatants, it applies to the marines and their conduct.

And yes, I did alot of dumb things when I was a teenager, and when I got caught I payed the conseqeunces for MY actions. I hate when people do that, being "kids" doesnt get them off, they are marines. And please dont bring up the actions of some soldiers and marines from WWII, korea and vietnam as a means of justifying the actions of these marines. those were completely differant times and a completely differant war.

While I dont think these marines should be locked away forever, they should and will be punished.
Author:  CAPFlyer [ Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
Did I defend their actions? No. Did I say they should be punished? Yes. What I said was that they are *NOT* WAR CRIMINALS. There is a huge difference between being punished under UCMJ for violations of it and being taken to the Hague and put on a public trial for war crimes. That is my point.

Also, I don't have to be in the military to understand the kind of stresses they go through and what they see. I have enough friends and family who served and who've been in the recent actions overseas to be all too well aware of some of the stuff they've gone through and the toll it takes on them. So don't tell me that I can't empathize with the guys who serve just because I haven't been there. That's the kind of BS that you get from the bleeding-heart liberals and ultra-stupids that protest military funerals.
Author:  B-17 guy [ Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bout Time Someones Stands Up
CAPFlyer wrote:
Also, I don't have to be in the military to understand the kind of stresses they go through and what they see. I have enough friends and family who served and who've been in the recent actions overseas to be all too well aware of some of the stuff they've gone through and the toll it takes on them. So don't tell me that I can't empathize with the guys who serve just because I haven't been there. That's the kind of BS that you get from the bleeding-heart liberals and ultra-stupids that protest military funerals.


You just dont get it. You cant truely understand it till you've been through it yourself, I didnt say you cant empathize. Empatizing and UNDERSTANDING it are two totally differant things. And like I said, no offense, because I'm not trying to insult you. If you want to take it that way, feel free.
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