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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Canada deports U.S. army deserter
ROBERT MATAS

Globe and Mail Update

July 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM EDT

VANCOUVER — U.S. army deserter Robin Long was quietly deported from Canada Tuesday morning, while protesters unaware of his whereabouts picketed the Canada-U.S. border crossing south of Vancouver.

”I can confirm that the removal took place but the Privacy Act prevents any discussion of the specifics of the case,” Shakila Manzoor, a spokesperson for the Canada Border Services Agency, said today in an interview.

She declined to say at what time he was sent back, where he crossed the border or who received him.

Madam Justice Anne Mactavish of the Federal Court of Canada cleared the way for the deportation late Monday, dismissing a last-ditch attempt to delay the process while the 25-year-old pursued further appeals.

“I was just shocked at some things in [the] ruling,” Bob Ages, a spokesman for an informal group called Vancouver War Resisters Support Campaign, told reporters outside the courtroom yesterday. “It just flies in the face of everything that we and every Canadian know about the reality of what is going on.”
Mr. Ages said the court misunderstood the situation facing Mr. Long upon his return.

“I do not think there is any doubt someone being up in Canada, and a vocal opponent to the war, will be treated harshly by the American military … there is no question he will be court-martialed and will receive severe punishment.”

Mr. Long's deportation would be a “terrible precedent for Canada, especially given our history of providing sanctuary for war resisters, over 100,000 draft dodgers and deserters during the Vietnam era,” he said earlier to reporters.

“This will be the first time Canada played gendarme to the American military,” Mr. Ages said, appealing to Prime Minister Stephen Harper or Immigration Minister Diane Finley to intervene. Members of the support group were to meet at the Peace Arch border crossing this morning to protest the deportation.

The war resisters support group is aware of about 50 deserters in Canada, Mr. Ages said, although the group has been told that “hundreds” are living underground in Canada.

Mr. Long, who fled to Ontario in 2005, had signed up to join the U.S. Army in July, 2003. He believed at that time that his country was justified in going to war in Iraq, his lawyer Shepherd Moss said at the court hearing to halt the deportation. Mr. Long intended to train as a tank commander. “He wanted to go to defend his country,” Mr. Moss said.

His perspective changed while in training at the army base at Fort Knox. After hearing that weapons of mass destruction had not been found in Iraq, Mr. Long thought the U.S. had no reason for being at war. Also, he was troubled by evidence of abuse of Iraqi detainees that came out in May of 2004, Mr. Moss said.

Mr. Long concluded the abuse was systemic and condoned by the U.S. administration, Mr. Moss said. After some soul-searching, Mr. Long decided he would not go to Iraq and would not participate or be complicit in what he believed were war crimes, the lawyer said.

Mr. Long fled to Ontario, but moved to B.C. last summer. He sought to be accepted as a refugee in September, 2006. His application for refugee status was denied on Feb. 15, 2007. An application for leave to appeal the decision was turned down.

In a final attempt to stay in Canada, Mr. Long applied Monday for a stay of the removal order in order to allow him further judicial appeals.

Caroline Christiaens, a lawyer with the federal Department of Justice, told the court that Mr. Long voluntarily joined the army, was not deployed to Iraq and did not apply to be recognized as a conscientious objector while in the United States.

No evidence was submitted on what Mr. Long would be required to do in Iraq, whether he could have requested an alternative assignment or even what would happen if he was sent back to the United States, she said.

If Mr. Long was returned to the United States and prosecuted as a deserter, he would have access to due process in a military court, she added.

Judge Mactavish said Mr. Long had to provide “clear and non-speculative evidence” that he would suffer irreparable harm if he were not allowed to stay longer in Canada. Mr. Long asserted he would face significant jail time and suffer adverse consequences as a result of a dishonourable discharge from the military.

The vast majority of American deserters have not been prosecuted for desertion, according to evidence before the court, the judge stated in a four-page decision. About 94 per cent of U.S. deserters from 2002 to 2006 were being dealt with administratively, receiving a less-than-honourable discharge from the military.

Judge Mactavish also stated that Mr. Long did not provide evidence to show he would be singled out for harsh treatment by the U.S. military because of the publicity associated with case.

Moreover, the United States has a sophisticated military-justice system that respects the rights of service personnel, she said.

The court heard that Mr. Long would likely be returned to his army unit, which would mete out whatever punishment he would receive.


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 Post subject: trial
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:07 am 
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Well, I am sure he'll get a fair trial from the military. After all, our country is not like Iraq or Iran or one of those terrorist places with no democracy or rule of law. It's not like the U S would ever hold a 15 year old kid in prison for 6 years without a fair trial. That's just stuff from the liberal media.
And we are supposed to have a "volunteer " military. We hear of all the great things going on in Iraq, all the surge progress. Surely the Army must be deluged with volunteers anxious to serve and get in on the victory while they still can, and they won't need this guy with his nagging concerns about truth. Other governments aren't held to such high standards, why should ours be handicapped?

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 Post subject: Re: trial
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:36 am 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Well, I am sure he'll get a fair trial from the military. After all, our country is not like Iraq or Iran or one of those terrorist places with no democracy or rule of law. It's not like the U S would ever hold a 15 year old kid in prison for 6 years without a fair trial. That's just stuff from the liberal media.
And we are supposed to have a "volunteer " military. We hear of all the great things going on in Iraq, all the surge progress. Surely the Army must be deluged with volunteers anxious to serve and get in on the victory while they still can, and they won't need this guy with his nagging concerns about truth. Other governments aren't held to such high standards, why should ours be handicapped?


As a member of the "Volunteer Military" as you put it, and a believer in this country, despite its now obviously inept leadership, I am kinda offended by the tone of the remarks, Bill.

That deserter KNEW when he signed the line what he was getting into. It is all very clearly explained before you sign the line. And when going through basic training, if you do not figure it out, then you are a total idiot. And if it upset him so much, he could have gotten his contract canceled anytime up till he swore in again after basic. They don't advertise that, but it is true. So I have no sympathy for him.

Robbie


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 Post subject: Robbie
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:04 am 
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Robbie, obviously my comments were satire and to make people think. If you or any other person volunteers for the military that is fine, whether it is for patriotic reasons or the money or career training or maybe you just dig planes or guns or tanks, or hanging around guys with buzz cuts; or maybe some combination of all of them. My comments aren't to you as an individual.
This one guy seems to be trying to make a point( I don't know the details), seeking pr and not just lying low. More power too him if he feels strongly enough to put himself on the line like that. I just think if the military has to force someone to stay in that is a sad state. Especially in view of all the baloney the public is fed.
You write of inept leadership. I certainly would not follow those two guys to the toilet after eating at Taco Bell. But my view and probably that of the majority of voters, is that we should not have invaded Iraq, especially based on distortions or outright lies. It is not worth our 35.000 causualties or one $trillion spent. It is not just how it is done or by who, but the whole scheme. Polls in Iraq have also shown the majority of people there want us out of their country, and Pres Maliki? just said the same thing, ie a timetable to withdraw.
As for you being offended by my tone, ok you have stated your objection in a civil manner. But are you also offended when you see a young soldier come back in a box or with no eyes or legs? I am, and I think many others are too.

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 Post subject: Re: Robbie
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:18 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
As for you being offended by my tone, ok you have stated your objection in a civil manner. But are you also offended when you see a young soldier come back in a box or with no eyes or legs? I am, and I think many others are too.


With that I am offended when it has happened for no purpose. We who have joined all understand that is a possible outcome: but we serve that others may be free.

We all joined freely- but we also engaged in a contract: and it was a commitment- same as a marriage, or a bill from a creditor. It is a commitment which must be honored. There are ways to get out of the contract- but running away to a foreign country, then saying how upset you are with the military for sending you into harm's way for something you don't believe in is not one of them. When we join the military, we give up any say as to the wars we will fight. We are sworn to "uphold and defend... against all enemies..." (yes, abbreviated, but they are the salient points here) We are not sworn to "uphold and defend" "alternate Tuesdays and Sundays, against only those enemies we ourselves define, and if we feel like it."

War is hell. But the military has volunteered to protect those who don't- even though they could.


Robbie


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 Post subject: Re: Robbie
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
...I just think if the military has to force someone to stay in that is a sad state...


Bill,

First, he signed a contract just like you did when you bought your last house or when you bought your car. As such, when he went AWOL, he was in material breach of that contract. How is his being prosecuted for being in material breach of a legally binding contract being forced to stay in? If he wanted out, there are ways out and there are ways to legally separate from your contract. He chose not to take them and he chose to go to Canada and make a target of himself by publically protesting his sworn (and contracted) duties.

So, if I follow your logic, then I shouldn't have to pay rent for my apartment, shouldn't have to make payments on my car, or make payments on my credit card because I shouldn't have to be "forced" to do something I don't want to even though I willingly signed a contract that said I was obligated to do so. This isn't apples and oranges either. His obligations to service are no different than the obligations of any other contract. You are obligated to meet the terms of the contract or be punished for not doing so. There is no grey area in this situation. If there was no way for him to get out, then that's one thing, but there are and there always have been. He simply needs to grow up.


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 Post subject: contract
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Cap, you are pretty strong and definite on the obligations of one side of the "contract", that of the soldier. Do you see any obligation on the other side, on the govt, on the military, on the C in chief? Or can they do anything they want? Not just can they, but should they do anything they want?
You mention a mortgage contract. If, after signing the sales contract to buy property, it is found there is a significant misrepresentation of material fact, a lie, then the contract can be voided, and damages may be awarded. Let's say the seller hides the fact that the property is a toxic dump or materially lies about permits to expand. Or you buy a time share at a resort, then the promised and advertised ski lift or pool are not built. It can be void. Should the govt, in life and death matters be held to any less standards than common business?
Many of us watched Powell stand up in front of the UN and flatly tell lies about Iraq buying nuclear ore from Nigeria, in no uncertain terms. The govt knew these were lies as has been revealed since. Is that just fine with you? Is it ok to tell recruits they have a one year term and go back on that at the end? I doubt if you handle your personal matters that way.

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 Post subject: Re: contract
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:04 am 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Is it ok to tell recruits they have a one year term and go back on that at the end?


If you read the whole contract- as you are directed to, several times BEFORE signing it, you will find, as you have been told, that you are signing for 8 years. And that 8 is broken up into 3 to four years active duty, and the remainder as Inactive or Active Reserve. You can sign for more active service time, but no less than 3 years.

And if you are referring to the time overseas, by rights, when fighting war, they should be over until the war is won- compete the job, or don't come home till you do. It was that way in WWII- and we won- on two fronts. In Korea, we started the idea we refined for Viet Nam- "limited tours", where a GI was sent over for 365 days. A one year death sentence. This killed unit cohesiveness and morale, because everyone was there for themselves- they had to survive their own 364 and a wakeup, and they'd be back "in the world". Had the units gone over and returned as units, with only replacements being added along the way, the outcome may have been different. But Washington screwed that one up royally- and I have heard many VN vets say the same thing. The WWII GI went over to win- not just punch dates off a calendar. The guys in Iraq and Afghanistan have a job to do- and they know it. It is people back here who are doing the wrong thing. On both sides of the fence.

Give us the men and the tools, and the US can win any war. Belittle our leadership(right or wrong) decide we are wrong, and you really screw with the morale of those who go fight wars on your behalf(whether you want them to or not) no matter how much lip service you give to "Supporting our troops" You're not supporting them if you demean their purpose for being there. I could go on and on, but am tired, and sick of people who think they can change the past and correct mistakes by crying about how we have wronged others, etc...

Robbie


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 Post subject: Re: trial
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:52 am 
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[quote="Bill Greenwood"] Other governments aren't held to such high standards, why should ours be handicapped?[/quote]

Exactly, The boy should be brought back to the U.S. and tried and then shot for desertion. It shold be a capital offense.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:23 pm 
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According to "Dirty" Harry Reid, paying taxes is voluntary too. So if I don't like what congress is doing with my taxes I can stop paying taxes without any penalty?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:32 pm 
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He also could have filed for discharge as a Conscientious Objector. Seen that done successfully several times in the Army.

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 Post subject: C O
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:26 pm 
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Sar, as I understand it, and I don't really know the details. This person does not fit the criteria of a Concientious Objector. He was not opposed to killing or all wars like a releigeous basis as are someone like Quakers or as M. Ali was. I thik he signed up to fight, then found the justifiaction for the war was not as adveritsed.

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 Post subject: Re: C O
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:24 am 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Sar, as I understand it, and I don't really know the details. This person does not fit the criteria of a Concientious Objector. He was not opposed to killing or all wars like a releigeous basis as are someone like Quakers or as M. Ali was. I thik he signed up to fight, then found the justifiaction for the war was not as adveritsed.


That is no excuse. If they weren't joining for the right reasons, they shouldn't have joined. Think of it this way as well- Taxpayers have paid tens of thousands of dollars for his training at this point. He has been paid, and is contractually obligated. Nowhere in that contract did it say he had a choice of wars or reasons for wars, justified, unjustified, or other. And he just wants to take their investment and run away before his part of the contract is fulfilled? We call that a thief.

He is a COWARD and a DESERTER, and should be shot.

Robbie


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:08 am 
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Bill,
Religion is not the sole criteria for a C.O.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:50 am 
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Really they should have shot all of those Veitnam deserters and draft dodgers that went to canada and we would not be having alot of the problems in this country we are having now..


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