Warbird Information Exchange

"Many of us watched Powell stand up in front of the UN and flatly tell lies about Iraq buying nuclear ore from Nigeria, in no uncertain terms. The govt knew these were lies as has been revealed since. Is that just fine with you? Is it ok to tell recruits they have a one year term and go back on that at the end? I doubt if you handle your personal matters that way."



http://www.nysun.com/editorials/iraqs-yellowcake/81328/

(Directed to the original comment regarding Colin Powell, which I'd missed in the shuffle) Sir, you are now insulting Colin Powell. He told the UN what he was told was, and that he believed to be the truth. The comment is libeling an honorable man. It is also revisionist history, and a falsehood. I still support the mission, although I will agree it may not have been the best idea. However, since none of us can change the past, the only thing to do is go forward and, to quote the famous bomber name, "KWITCHERBITCHIN"

I also request an apology to Mr. Colin Powell, for calling him a liar, as has been done in the quoted text.

The editorial article says a lot...

Robbie

Please don't call Bill an idiot, Robbie. I'm torn myself at the kid's problem. I signed up knowing I would go where they sent me and be at teh front of the pack, at that. This kid joined thinking he was going to defend his country and got confused. We're not all geniuses, we don't all know what's right, and we don't all make good decisions all teh time. I agree, he could have got out in a number of ways before basic ended. But I also do NOT remember being told we could wave our hands and go home if we couldn't take it. I'm noot saying he was right, just that I don't particulalry think he's a bad eprson deserving of prison time for getting a taste and finding out he couldn't eat the alligator onna stick, you know?

I'd also like to point out that, whlie it generally isn't reported, teh Army doesn't want guys like this. They'll probably let him walk. A relatively large number of AWOLS are being quietly slipped out of teh service with a slap on teh wrist. Which I think is GOOD. THey can't be trusted to stand next to me and return fire, get them gone. I need someone who will be wiling to die for me as readily as I'll do it for him.

Honestly, I'm not sure how I would have dealt with this one. The "ghan I would volunteer for. Iraq..well, I suspect I would be there for the men standing next to me more than for any patriotic feelings. I'm not saying the kid isn't wrong. But I would'nt want him there if he didn't want to be there, or at least feel a bond between his mates that wouldn't let him run. He ran, and he is not suitable to the needs of the Army.

I have't read the rest of te thread, just felt I should respond.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

The last man we shot for desertion was Pvt. Eddie Slovik in WWII (Hurtgen I believe) who went into the line, got shelled his first day, went into what we now know is a mental condition which can't be well predicted now and certainly couldn't be there then. That was 63 years ago and we knew it wasn't really right or decent THEN. Eisenhower just felt he had to make an example becuase desertions were going up by men on the line. being tried for desertion is just wrong, particulalry in todays volunteer force. It's setting troops up for a real mental cazse: Go and freak ou, we shoot you. Go and don't freak out, they shoot you. The russians did enough of that, thanks. They died by the millions doing it, too.

When you go volunteer, the rules change. We're volunteers. We need to remain so. Wench, have you actually ever served in a line unit during a war? Just curious.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

I am totally gobstoppered at this. Robbie, THINK, dammit! He may be a coward, but for god's sake, I don't WANT him next to me on the line. THAT IS WHAT BASIC IS FOR! to find out if they can hack it., He couldn't, fine. He went through the process, and in the process he freaked and ran. You gonna shoot all the ones who halfway trhough realize they can't do it as well? Sheesh.

Bill, I know you think this war is a travesty of justice, but the military lives by different rules. This is an affront to those who risk their lives every day and sometimes give them. We may not agree with them (for different reasons IMHO) but you need to look at it from their perspective as well: THis man is pissing on the sacrifices they make daily, and evidently for his own skin. Easy enough to look from afar at the fairness of trying him for a war he doesn't believe in. Not so easy when you're IN IRAW fighting a war you don't believe in. They may not be perfectly right in their anger, but then you are also not perfectly right in your support of him. What he did was truly awful. But it certainly doesn't deserve death. IMHO it deserves what he'll get: Other than honorable discharge due to unsuitablility to the army.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Yup, or sent back to his unit. I knew a guy when I was in talk of desertion and lets just say he changed his mind real quick.

[quote="muddyboots"][quote="Robbie Roberts"] And if it upset him so much, he could have gotten his contract canceled anytime up till he swore in again after basic. They don't advertise that, but it is true. So I have no sympathy for him.

Robbie[/quote]

Please don't call Bill an idiot, Robbie. I'm torn myself at the kid's problem. I signed up knowing I would go where they sent me and be at teh front of the pack, at that. This kid joined thinking he was going to defend his country and got confused. We're not all geniuses, we don't all know what's right, and we don't all make good decisions all teh time. I agree, he could have got out in a number of ways before basic ended. But I also do NOT remember being told we could wave our hands and go home if we couldn't take it. I'm noot saying he was right, just that I don't particulalry think he's a bad eprson deserving of prison time for getting a taste and finding out he couldn't eat the alligator onna stick, you know?

I'd also like to point out that, whlie it generally isn't reported, teh Army doesn't want guys like this. They'll probably let him walk. A relatively large number of AWOLS are being quietly slipped out of teh service with a slap on teh wrist. Which I think is GOOD. THey can't be trusted to stand next to me and return fire, get them gone. I need someone who will be wiling to die for me as readily as I'll do it for him.

Honestly, I'm not sure how I would have dealt with this one. The "ghan I would volunteer for. Iraq..well, I suspect I would be there for the men standing next to me more than for any patriotic feelings. I'm not saying the kid isn't wrong. But I would'nt want him there if he didn't want to be there, or at least feel a bond between his mates that wouldn't let him run. He ran, and he is not suitable to the needs of the Army.

I have't read the rest of te thread, just felt I should respond.[/quote]

Regardless the man needs to be made an example of and at least life inprisionment in leavenworth.... I think we should start by renaming the department of defense to the war department and purge those from the ranks of the military that seem to have a problem with killing those that get in the way of victory in Iraq.... I didn't serve in the infantry! I scored to high on the ASVAB.

Robbie, an apology is due,and it is from the people who sent Powell the the UN to espouse the party line about Iraq buying yellowcake ore in Nigeria. I am not certain, but like you, I think better of Powell than those who sent him. I belive it is more than likely that he believed some of what he was telling the UN, Congress, the US voters, and the world. However THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. What he was saying was a LIE, both about the nuclear ore, and about those trucks or trailers he showed pictures of and claimed they were part of bio/chemical weapons. If you look up on google, etc. a character the CIA called "curveball" you can get the sorce of this nonsense. It was a low level Iraqi who has been exposed as a fraud and a con man.
I beleive Powell was knowingly sent to the UN as a front man because he had creditability with the public that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield didn't . They used and misused a good man, by all evidence, and I believe Powell has since said he regreted that speech most of his career. Go on Wikepedia and read about his doubts about what the administration wanted him to say, "to sell it", and how he later agreed it was a "blot" on his record.
One of the most cherished things we have as a person is our integrity, ie. that our word means something. They took this from Powell to a certian extent. He should have filed a suit against them for huge damages.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Scoring well on the ASVAB is not a predictor of where a person should or will volunteer t9o serve.

I'm not sure what yo mean by purge the DoD. But under this premise you should have been purged sinc eyou weren't capable in one way ort he other maybe just not ballsy enough?) to join to grunts and do the job. But wait, whatever job you did: MUST HAVE BEEN NEEDED. we don'[t need just ball swinging rifle toting killers. We need teh thoughtful types as well. What we DON'T need is people who don't want to be tehre. THAT would be bad fo morale. Maye not for you blue star commandos, but for te men at the front of the pack, knowing there's a coward next to you isn't such a safe feeling. you NEED someone to back you up. KNowing tehy won't...doesn't cut it.
Leavenworth. Now tere is an idea. Take a kid who offered himself to his country, and then found he wasn't man enough to do the job. And put him i prison for it.
I'm really trying to stay away from the word moronic, wench. But it's pretty hard when your demands are so simple minded. IMHO at any time up to graduation from AIT any troop should have the right to walk away scot free AND IT SHOULD BE WELL KNOWN in the ranks.
I sure as hell didn't kinow I could walk away. I doubt many of us did. All THAT does is increase desertion in the first place. Again, if they can't hack basic, why the hell would you want them to serve? All that will do is get someone hurt. To demand taht someone who has doine the best they are able be punised fr it is downright twisted, serves no purpose than to fulfill a twisted vengeance, and is harmful to morale and efficiency> Explain to me again how this kid should have his balls cut off.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Muddy, It may be a small point, but we don't know "this kid can't hack basic". All I know is he joined in 03, deserted in 05. assume he finished basic. Even I made it through basic and I sure wasn't motivated, excet to finish and get out. AF basic may have been easier than others tho.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Bill, Fort Knox is the armor training center. You go there for Basic and AIT (combined school for them) and when you graduate you are immediatly shipped out to a unit somewhere. He was either in the AIT or Basic phase of his Initial Entry Training. You get to go home for Xmas, etc, so I suspect he bailed during the holidays.

Here's the thing: He's probably NOT going to be severely punished. He'll do time in the stockade, MAYBE. They'll use taht time to porcess him out with a less than honorable, or even a general discharge.

I and the Army agree on this issue. Basic is when you weed them out. If they can't hack it you let them go home with a slap on the wrist and an administrative punishment whcih will point out in teh future taht they did not serve like I did. It only really matetrs with a federal job, He'll be fine.


Broken Wench, I just realize I never made my point about you and your above average ASVAB. I maxed it. I asked for infantry. PLenty of smart guys become grunts. Plenty of morons become desk jockeys. ASVAB is as bad an IQ test or ability tester that I have ever known.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

[quote="muddyboots"][quote="Broken-Wrench"]
Regardless the man needs to be made an example of and at least life inprisionment in leavenworth.... I think we should start by renaming the department of defense to the war department and purge those from the ranks of the military that seem to have a problem with killing those that get in the way of victory in Iraq.... I didn't serve in the infantry! I scored to high on the ASVAB. [/quote]

Scoring well on the ASVAB is not a predictor of where a person should or will volunteer t9o serve.

I'm not sure what yo mean by purge the DoD. But under this premise you should have been purged sinc eyou weren't capable in one way ort he other maybe just not ballsy enough?) to join to grunts and do the job. But wait, whatever job you did: MUST HAVE BEEN NEEDED. we don'[t need just ball swinging rifle toting killers. We need teh thoughtful types as well. What we DON'T need is people who don't want to be tehre. THAT would be bad fo morale. Maye not for you blue star commandos, but for te men at the front of the pack, knowing there's a coward next to you isn't such a safe feeling. you NEED someone to back you up. KNowing tehy won't...doesn't cut it.
Leavenworth. Now tere is an idea. Take a kid who offered himself to his country, and then found he wasn't man enough to do the job. And put him i prison for it.
I'm really trying to stay away from the word moronic, wench. But it's pretty hard when your demands are so simple minded. IMHO at any time up to graduation from AIT any troop should have the right to walk away scot free AND IT SHOULD BE WELL KNOWN in the ranks.
I sure as heck didn't kinow I could walk away. I doubt many of us did. All THAT does is increase desertion in the first place. Again, if they can't hack basic, why the heck would you want them to serve? All that will do is get someone hurt. To demand taht someone who has doine the best they are able be punised fr it is downright twisted, serves no purpose than to fulfill a twisted vengeance, and is harmful to morale and efficiency> Explain to me again how this kid should have his balls cut off.[/quote]

We'll Muddy. Let me explain it to ya.. I get big score on ASVAB, Recuriuter and WRENCH know That Wrench can do more than tote big gun. Wrench take no money for enlistment bounus to tote big gun
and go to big A school with long term plan. Wrench's kimosabi's fluk A school. Now they to tote big gun. Wrench get out of military go big name school.. Work and pay big bill for school with know how from military. Wrenchhave no bill and plenty of whampum.

Anyhow, I could have went the grunt route but For one there isn't any skills tranferable to anything that pays and secondly they arn't going to let me hunt people out of a helicopter and fight as I see fit so I didn't play that game... Sure I could have played the game but I didn't want to spend the rest of my life crying in my beer how uncle sam mistreated me. That boy ran off on me , you , the members of WIX and the U.S. as a whole and his life isn't worth Sheet. Further It isn't worth my time top get into detailed conversation on WIX as it is a WASTE OF TIME. Over out Peace feel free to ramble on.

I maxed the ASVAB, bud. While you're waving you Army IQ score around, try and remember there are a lot of us who scored well on it and chose 11B. Less stupid grunts than you might imagine. The boy ran off on himself. He never got to the point were you, I, or the nation ACCEPTED HIM AS A SOLDIER. End of argument.
Have a nice drink, Wench.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Ok I think this has gone far enough. You have all said your peace and I see nothing further to be said with out the proverbial dead horse beating...

Discussion closed. Thanks for trying to keep it civil.

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Zane Adams
There I was at 20,000 ft, upside down and out of ammunition.
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