A Few For The B-17G Mickey Radar Gurus

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:06 am

PFF B-17 List: Current Status = 347 entries!

Going through yet more references while compiling the PFF B-17 list brought me back to this photo we discussed earlier in the thread:

This is of course the original 42-97542 City of Savannah, with that looks like an H2X radome underneath.

According to Fortresses of the Big Triangle First it would appear that she was originally assigned to the 482nd Bomb Group at Alconbury and fitted with H2X.
In addition, it is believed that most of the batch of new H2X B-17s that arrived at the same time were in natural metal finish and were then camouflage painted shortly after their arrival at Alconbury.

So, could the photo show City of Savannah newly arrived, complete with radome?

All the best,
PB

Django · **Posted:** Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:53 am

Don't know if you guys have seen this one, but I just came across it.

http://www.457thbombgroup.org/

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:30 am

Cheers Django,

I did a list of the original 94CBW PFF ships a while back, including 42-97951.
These were all based at the wing's parent station at Polebrook with the 351BG and flew with the subordinate groups as required.
By August 1944 sufficient PFF-equipped aircraft were available for each group to have their own, at this point the surviving wing pathfinder aircraft were distributed among them permanently.

42-97600
B-17G-20-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 401BG 20th August 1944, IW-Y (614th), IN-Y (613th).

Lost to Flak 21st November 1944.

42-97601
B-17G-20-VE
Lost to Fighter 19th July 1944 while flying with 457th Bomb Group.

42-97636
B-17G-25-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 401BG 26th August 1944, IY-H (615th).
Transferred to 305BG 1st May 1945.

42-97638
B-17G-25-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 457BG 1st August 1944.
Lost to Flak 7th October 1944.

42-97649
B-17G-25-VE
Transferred to 457BG from 94CBW 1st August 1944.

Transferred to 305BG 23rd May 1945.

42-97651
B-17G-25-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 351BG 1st August 1944.
Transferred to 305BG May 1945.

42-97687
B-17G-25-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 351BG 25th August 1944.
Transferred to 305BG May 1945.

42-97701
B-17G-25-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 351BG 1st August 1944.

Transferred to 305BG 6th May 1945.

42-97947
B-17G-40-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 401BG 20th August 1944, SC-U (612th).
Transferred to 305BG

42-97951
B-17G-40-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 457BG 20th August 1944.

Lost to Flak while leading a bomb run near Nijmegen 17th September 1944.

42-97965
B-17G-40-VE
Transferred from 94CBW to 351BG 20th August 1944.
Crash-landed near Brussels 15th October 1944.

All the best,
PB

Taylor Stevenson · **Posted:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:09 pm

If anyone is interested, only 1 hr left! Chuckie could use these photos...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230700698997?ss ... 1423.l2649

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:55 pm

Some nice closeup photos of 44-8846 HERE.

A few of the photos are particularly interesting, as they show she still has the double radar altimeter antennae fitted under the wings.

EDIT: Link updated.

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:10 am

I was lucky enough to find an indicator unit (I-152) for the SCR-718 radar altimeter system last week.

It's a bit rough on the front panel and is missing the glare shield, but is otherwise complete.
Photos to follow shortly.

PB

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:57 pm

Photos as promised:

Once I can free off the front knobs and remove them from their shafts I'll strip down the front plate and repaint it.
Before rubbing it back I'll copy the lettering and screen-print it after applying the wrinkle finish.

philatthepub · **Joined:** Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:08 pm **Posts:** 7

Hi Paul,

Although I note the thread hasn't been active for a while, I must say you've done some great work on a specialist subject that I think is really worthy of in depth research.

After reading Ray Bowden's "Plane Names & Fancy Noses" and then cross referencing it with Cliff Bishop's "Fortresses over Nuthampstead" and "Fortresses of the Big Triangle First", I've got a couple of questions concerning B-17 Mickey Ships.

Firstly, while I know the original B-17Gs that equipped the 812th squadron / 482nd Bomb Group and had the H2X raydomes installed behind the chin turret in the nose, were all Douglas built Fortresses, it seems that the B-17Gs that followed with the production H2X raydomes installed instead of the ball turret were all Vega built Fortresses ?

Was there a special reason for that made Vega built Forts more suitable for PFF conversions?

Was it a technical reason? I think I remember reading in "Combat Profile: B-17G Flying Fortess" by Roger A. Freeman that Douglas Built Forts had an extra 500lb of reinforcement around the engine nacelles, while in addition to this Vega built Forts also had an additional 250lbs of reinforcement to the main spar, possibly making them more suitable for H2X conversions? (while also leading to the legend that genuine Boeing made Forts were nicer to fly).

Or was it a practical reason such as that the factory that produced the H2X radar sets was nearest to the Vega Aircraft Factory at Burbank or the Modification Centre that Vega built Forts were flown to?

With thanks

Phil Casey
Surrey.

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:32 am

Ta Phil,

I haven't found a reference yet as to why Vega seemed to be the preferred source for PFF conversions.
However, when the location of where the production H2X equipment was installed is actually noted it always seems to be at Langley, irrespective of the modification centre the aircraft was originally delivered to.

I'll stumble across the right file one day and it will explain all, I'm sure...

All the best,
PB

philatthepub · **Joined:** Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:08 pm **Posts:** 7

Hi Paul,

I got hold of a 2nd hand copy of "Combat Profile: B-17G Flying Fortress" by Roger A. Freeman after Surrey Libraries had disposed of theirs, and in Chapter 3 Combat Development he writes;

"Although supplied with design and production plans by Boeing to build the same model as the Seattle Plant, the airframes and equipment differed in several respects. Douglas-built B-17Fs had strengthened mid-wing sections embracing the engine nacelles and these added approximately 450lb to the basic empty weight. Vega also used the same wing section design as Douglas but additionally strengthened part of the fuselage for a total extra weight of approximately 750lb. Apart from giving Vega B-17Fs a different flight attitude, it caused stress concentrations around the radio room where the rear fuselage was bolted to the forward section of the bomb bay. This led to a general preference among combat pilots for Boeing-built aircraft which were reckoned to have slightly better performance and handling qualities."

Perhaps this additional 300lb of Fuselage strengthening made Vega Forts more suitable to carry all the PFF equipment? though Cliff Bishop's "Fortresses over Nuthampstead" does give one example of the PFF equipment being swapped from a Vega Fort (44-8699) and installed on a Boeing Fort (43-39213).

My second question concerns 8th Air force PFF Mickey Ships that were finished in Olive Drab / Neutral Grey. I'm fascinated by those Olive Drab B-17Gs that survived long enough to gain the late war high visibility combat wing markings as this created some really interesting paint schemes. 42-97557 "Mercy's Madhouse" seeems to be the only example I can find of an Olive Drab / Neutral Grey PFF ship carrying high visibility combat wing markings, in it's case the big red triangle border of the 303rd Bomb Group. Do you know of any others ?

With thanks

Phil Casey,
Surrey

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:02 pm

I'm sure there'll be a sound reason for favouring Vega Forts for PFF installations, but I haven't stumbled across the paperwork for it yet.

As for 8AF PFF OD/NG forts with the hi-vis markings, other than Mercy's Madhouse there were maybe only one or two others that survived until August 44 when the schemes were introduced, and most of those were originally NMF from the factory with in-theatre depot paint jobs.

I'll have a look at my PFF listing to see if I can recall which ones they were.

All the best,
PB

philatthepub · **Joined:** Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:08 pm **Posts:** 7

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the advice on the Olive Drab / Neutral Grey PFF Forts that survived long enough to gain high visibility combat wing markings, which really helps as I'm looking to build some 1/72 scale models of PFF Forts.

I've cross referenced Cliff Bishop's "Fortresses of the Big Triangle First" with Roger A Freeman's "The B-17 Flying Fortress Story" again which has thrown up a couple of possibilities, such as the 379th's 42-40018 which was forced landed on the Continent in January '45, while the 305th's 42-97514 returned to the 482nd in July '44 and so probably missed gaining their Green Tail Stripe. However without photographic references I think the safest option for me is to stick with building a model of 42-97557 "Mercy's Madhouse", which the new 1/72 scale Revell B-17G kit seems ideal for.

My other models will be NMF 91st Bomb Group PFF Forts, most likely using Academy B-17G kits with the Paragon designs resin PFF Raydome, and these will probably be the 324th Bomb Squadron's unnamed 42-97632 DF-R which was shot down in February 1945, and the 401st Bomb Squadron's 42-97754 LL-M or 44-8357 LL-T "Tennessee Tess".

However, I've read the dailies of the 324th Bomb Squadron, 91st Bomb Group and it seems that many of the original 94th CBW PFF ships came from the 324th Bomb Squadron following their stint as a PFF squadron in May / June 1944.

http://www.91stbombgroup.com/Dailies/324thdailies.html

and I was just wondering if by chance through your research you had found out the radio call letters carried by 42-97600, 42-97638, 42-97649 and 42-97687 when they were with the 91st Bomb Group? The Dailies do give the call letters for 42-97601 as DF-J, 42-97636 as DF-P and 42-97651 as DF-C.

With thanks for your assistance,

Phil Casey
Surrey

daviemax · **Posted:** Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:49 am

Attached is a photo of 44-6993 named Bonney Ann Hot to Go with AN/APQ-7 Eagle Radar installation. Photo is dated 25 Oct. 46. Note unusual air intake and exhaust (for heater?). Aircraft served 8th and 9th (USAFE) Air Forces.

Snowman · **Joined:** Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:19 pm **Posts:** 1

Hello,
Over the last couple of years I have been researching my father's service in the 15th AF, 301st BG, 353rd BS whereby he flew 50 missions from Lucera, Italy from March 1944 through November 1944. He was a Mickey Operator. From my research I have determined that he was trained as a Radar Navigation Bombardier at Langley, VA in February 1944. I also believe he was in the first class trained at Langley which consisted of 8 men. My best guess is that these Mickey Operators were assigned to the 15th AF. I haven't been able to determine the details of his first mission but I assume it was in March '44. I do know that flew several missions to Ploesti but I am still trying to gather all that information.

I am pleasantly surprised to find this forum which obviously has the contributions of folks quite knowledgeable in the Pathfinder Force technology and outfitting into B-17's. From my read of the messages it appears most of the information involves the 8th AF. Can anyone share information on the PFF aircraft (and any other related information) of the 15th AF that may be available?

thanks much,
Andy

lmritger · **Posted:** Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:03 am

Regarding the comment upthread about the H2X units being installed at Langley:

We had what was referred to as the H2X/LAB (Low Altitude Bombing) school here at Langley Field and I know we had a large number of B-17s and B-24s on station throughout the war; the H2X school for operators was here, so it seems this is where many (most?) of the PFF operators learned their trade before going overseas. What I did not know was that the Mickey installation was done here at Langley. Paul, or anyone else, can you possibly provide scans of aircraft records indicating this work took place on site? I'm reasonably certain not even the Virginia Air and Space Center is aware of this, and it's something that I think warrants a mention there. Since our model club meets there monthly and we have several members of the Museum staff in the club, we may be able to make that happen.

Lynn

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