C-47s OP Market Garden
Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:07 pm
C-47s headed for their drop zones with the 101st ABN 1944
???
Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:31 pm
Are there any C-47 flying with the release gear for the supplies carried underneeth?
C-47s OP Market Garden
Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:30 pm
I was with the 316th Troop Carrier Group, 37th Troop Carrier Squadron. Our Squadron ID was W7. The C-47 shown in the photo was also from the 316th TCG, and the ID 4C tells us that that plane was from the 36th Troop Carrier Squadron.
Since these planes are to drop paratroopers in the Market Garden operation, then this photo was taken on 17 September 1944. (On the next day, we towed Gliders, and repeated a glider tow mission on 23 September, 1944. On 26 September, we landed in Keent, Holland with supplies, and flew out personnel.)
The four Market Garden missions were flown from our base at Cottesmore, England, Station 489. And we dropped elements of the 82nd ABN, not the 101st ABN, just as we had dropped the 82nd in the Husky missions (invasion of Sicily, July 1943), D-Day Normandy on 6 June, 1944, and Market Garden as noted above.
I researched and wrote the history of the 316th TCG (“Valor Without Arms”). My appendix for the 17 Sept. 1944 Market Garden mission shows the 36th TCS flew C-47 serial # 43-15179 that day, tail radio call letter “H.” That day the 36th TCS carried the 504 PIR, Co. B and C.
I would be very interested in learning where this photo came from, since it was obviously taken from one of the 36th Squadron’s C-47s. If anyone has this original photo, and scanned it in TIF format, we might learn the radio call letters of the other “Vee.” I’d be very interested in that info. The photo and my records would suggest the photo was likely taken from the lead plane in the 4th “Vee.” You can reach me (Mike Ingrisano) at mingnan@juno.com
Since these planes are to drop paratroopers in the Market Garden operation, then this photo was taken on 17 September 1944. (On the next day, we towed Gliders, and repeated a glider tow mission on 23 September, 1944. On 26 September, we landed in Keent, Holland with supplies, and flew out personnel.)
The four Market Garden missions were flown from our base at Cottesmore, England, Station 489. And we dropped elements of the 82nd ABN, not the 101st ABN, just as we had dropped the 82nd in the Husky missions (invasion of Sicily, July 1943), D-Day Normandy on 6 June, 1944, and Market Garden as noted above.
I researched and wrote the history of the 316th TCG (“Valor Without Arms”). My appendix for the 17 Sept. 1944 Market Garden mission shows the 36th TCS flew C-47 serial # 43-15179 that day, tail radio call letter “H.” That day the 36th TCS carried the 504 PIR, Co. B and C.
I would be very interested in learning where this photo came from, since it was obviously taken from one of the 36th Squadron’s C-47s. If anyone has this original photo, and scanned it in TIF format, we might learn the radio call letters of the other “Vee.” I’d be very interested in that info. The photo and my records would suggest the photo was likely taken from the lead plane in the 4th “Vee.” You can reach me (Mike Ingrisano) at mingnan@juno.com
????
Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:32 pm
Hi Mike,
Thanks a million for the post.
The photos is from the National Archives and I've got a number of ETO C-47 photos. I have a tiff images and I'll strt looking for it.
Thanks a million for the post.
The photos is from the National Archives and I've got a number of ETO C-47 photos. I have a tiff images and I'll strt looking for it.
Re: C-47s OP Market Garden
Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:45 pm
Mike Ingrisano wrote:I was with the 316th Troop Carrier Group, 37th Troop Carrier Squadron. Our Squadron ID was W7. The C-47 shown in the photo was also from the 316th TCG, and the ID 4C tells us that that plane was from the 36th Troop Carrier Squadron.
Since these planes are to drop paratroopers in the Market Garden operation, then this photo was taken on 17 September 1944. (On the next day, we towed Gliders, and repeated a glider tow mission on 23 September, 1944. On 26 September, we landed in Keent, Holland with supplies, and flew out personnel.)
The four Market Garden missions were flown from our base at Cottesmore, England, Station 489. And we dropped elements of the 82nd ABN, not the 101st ABN, just as we had dropped the 82nd in the Husky missions (invasion of Sicily, July 1943), D-Day Normandy on 6 June, 1944, and Market Garden as noted above.
I researched and wrote the history of the 316th TCG (“Valor Without Arms”). My appendix for the 17 Sept. 1944 Market Garden mission shows the 36th TCS flew C-47 serial # 43-15179 that day, tail radio call letter “H.” That day the 36th TCS carried the 504 PIR, Co. B and C.
I would be very interested in learning where this photo came from, since it was obviously taken from one of the 36th Squadron’s C-47s. If anyone has this original photo, and scanned it in TIF format, we might learn the radio call letters of the other “Vee.” I’d be very interested in that info. The photo and my records would suggest the photo was likely taken from the lead plane in the 4th “Vee.” You can reach me (Mike Ingrisano) at mingnan@juno.com
Wow!
Thank you so much for your service Mike! Jack Cook is on the ball when he posts a picture and an actual vet can relate to the picture...from the same group no less! 
Amazing. Again thank you so much sir. 
C-47s OP Market Garden
Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:32 pm
Thanks Jack and Nathan. It has been ages since I visited the National Archives. I look forward to your finding the picture. E-mail works fine because I am not on the internet too often.
"Release Gear." You are speaking about the parapacks and pararacks. The parapacks were "packed" in the pararacks. The packs were then released electronically from inside the aircraft. This was done close to when the troopers jumped so that they would have the material in the packs soon after the jumper landed. These packs contained high expolosives; medical supplies; rations, etc.
Each plane had four to six packs under their bellies. In addition, some times a weapon (artrillery piece) was carried in the body of the C-47. We, the crew chief and the radio operator, had the job of shoving it out the back opening. This was true on the D-Day Normandy mission. The CC and I had to shove 75mm artillery piece out of the opening.
(By the way, I have a snapshot of myself, in the doorway of my C-47 on 6/5/44, before we took off for D-Day. At the edge of the photo you can see one of the parapacks.)
Our other job after the drop was to pull in the static lines, to get that drag off the aircraft. Mike I.
"Release Gear." You are speaking about the parapacks and pararacks. The parapacks were "packed" in the pararacks. The packs were then released electronically from inside the aircraft. This was done close to when the troopers jumped so that they would have the material in the packs soon after the jumper landed. These packs contained high expolosives; medical supplies; rations, etc.
Each plane had four to six packs under their bellies. In addition, some times a weapon (artrillery piece) was carried in the body of the C-47. We, the crew chief and the radio operator, had the job of shoving it out the back opening. This was true on the D-Day Normandy mission. The CC and I had to shove 75mm artillery piece out of the opening.
(By the way, I have a snapshot of myself, in the doorway of my C-47 on 6/5/44, before we took off for D-Day. At the edge of the photo you can see one of the parapacks.)
Our other job after the drop was to pull in the static lines, to get that drag off the aircraft. Mike I.
????
Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:50 pm
It's easy sometimes to view C-47s has none combatants but that was so very far from the truth!!!!
Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:32 am
Hi Mr. Ingrisano,
Thank you for your post. It is just amazing to hear from people like you who were there and can give us young kids an insight into how things were during WWII.
Cheers,
David McIntosh
Thank you for your post. It is just amazing to hear from people like you who were there and can give us young kids an insight into how things were during WWII.
Cheers,
David McIntosh
C-47s OP Market Garden photo
Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:04 am
Time flies, all kinds of things jump to the top of the ToDo list or interrupt life, and I still don’t know much about using the Internet. Hope I’m sending this message correctly.
I was reminded of this photo, and would still like to track down a high resolution version of it. The planes in this photo were from my 316th Troop Carrier Group. The visible Squadron Code on the right plane (“4C”) was assigned to our 36th Squadron. I was radio operator with the 37th Squadron. I wrote the history of our Group (“Valor Without Arms”), and am very interested in the C-47s assigned to our Group, and their serial numbers and markings.
If anyone can help locate this photo or the original source, I would really appreciate it.
By the way, a couple of years ago I visited the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB, and we scanned their WWII photos of our Group. I have about a CD worth of tiff photos of our preparations for Market Garden, with C-47s lined up on the ground, ready for the glider pull on 18 Sept 1944 (just 65 years ago!). As I’m no good at getting things on the Internet, I’d be glad to pass them on – maybe a good trade for the above photo?
As always, it’s best to contact me by e-mail at mingnan@juno.com, as I’m not on the Internet very frequently, and never quite sure I’m getting these posts right. Or if there is a friendly soul out there who wants to remind me to check back on the Internet, that would work too, I guess. Mike I.
I was reminded of this photo, and would still like to track down a high resolution version of it. The planes in this photo were from my 316th Troop Carrier Group. The visible Squadron Code on the right plane (“4C”) was assigned to our 36th Squadron. I was radio operator with the 37th Squadron. I wrote the history of our Group (“Valor Without Arms”), and am very interested in the C-47s assigned to our Group, and their serial numbers and markings.
If anyone can help locate this photo or the original source, I would really appreciate it.
By the way, a couple of years ago I visited the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB, and we scanned their WWII photos of our Group. I have about a CD worth of tiff photos of our preparations for Market Garden, with C-47s lined up on the ground, ready for the glider pull on 18 Sept 1944 (just 65 years ago!). As I’m no good at getting things on the Internet, I’d be glad to pass them on – maybe a good trade for the above photo?
As always, it’s best to contact me by e-mail at mingnan@juno.com, as I’m not on the Internet very frequently, and never quite sure I’m getting these posts right. Or if there is a friendly soul out there who wants to remind me to check back on the Internet, that would work too, I guess. Mike I.
Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:41 pm
must be post D-Day as the uper stripes on the aircraft have been wiped.
??
Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:11 pm
must be post D-Day as the uper stripes on the aircraft have been wiped.
OP Market Garden Sept 1944
Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:13 am
Of course you are correct JC. I'm viewing things upside down!
Mystery photo identified
Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:53 pm
Mike and Nancy showed me this photo at the recent Troop Carrier Community reunion in Indianapolis. Being the historian for the Pathfinder Group I immediately noticed the two center aircraft carrying SCR-717C radar pods on the lower fuselage.
The leading plane has a noticable blotch of black at the nose and just a hint of nose code. Pathfinder Group a/c did not EVER carry nose coding. This indicates to me that this is a Squadron or Group Pathfinder aircraft and as such is likely flown by the CO of that element.
The closer PF plane (second from left) does not carry any nose code, so is likely from the Pathfinder Group. Regrettably my records do not indicate which PF a/c might have been tasked to a mission with the 316th.
The half stripes certainly date the photo after August 44. However, this is NOT Market-Garden.
On extreme magnification the chalk number 1?7 can be seen on the H aircraft 315179 (extreme right). This chalk number is waaay outside the norm for use in an American air drop.
In checking Mike's excellent VALOR WITHOUT ARMS and reference pages 182-183, we find the 316th line up for VARSITY. Unfortunately the specifics for 36th Sqn (4C) are not apparent, but the other three Squadrons are and the number 43-15179 does not appear. Backtracking the number through the other operations we do find it listed in the 36th.
Checking back through the mission for the lead aircraft of the Squadron serials we find 43-30652 flew as a lead aircraft with the 37th. (W7) This again, is most likely to be a 717C equipped plane.
Nancy also provided me an absolutely beautiful port side profile of 652 with 717C radar perfectly profiled, and most significantly the large black blotch just aft of the cockpit and the crisp coding 4C for the 36th TCS applied.
It is apparent that 652 was transferred "in house" from the 37th to the 36th and performed lead/PF duties with the new Squadron. The 37th code W7 was painted out and 4C applied in its place.
I believe that the farthest distant a/c (third from left) is 652 which carries radio call letter "N".
Based on Mike's extensive research--and the lack of detail in his listings for the 36th TCS on pages 182 and 183, I say that this photo is of the 36th enroute to VARSITY.
This is further corroborated by the chalk number. The 36th carried chalks 141-160 on VARSITY and it was carrying BRITS! The extreme magnification appears to be Chalk 1-3-7, but 3's are often "garbled" as a 5, so this could well be chalk 157 which is in the realm of the 36th chalk numbers. This serial was carrying BRITISH troops--5th Abn Bde HQ/ 13th ParaBn.
I have advised Nancy and Mike of my findings and they agree.
43-15179 was lost flying with 316th on 3APR45---Lt Leo White pilot--Col Berger flying as co-pilot. Berger was KIA.
43-30652 is still flying with the Historic Aircraft Group out of Geneseo, NY.
Problem solved. Please make pencil notations to all your C-47 and Market-Garden books which have mis-identified this picture as OM-G.
Dave Berry
PFHISTCONSULTANT@aol.com
www.PathfinderHistoricalConsultants.com
The leading plane has a noticable blotch of black at the nose and just a hint of nose code. Pathfinder Group a/c did not EVER carry nose coding. This indicates to me that this is a Squadron or Group Pathfinder aircraft and as such is likely flown by the CO of that element.
The closer PF plane (second from left) does not carry any nose code, so is likely from the Pathfinder Group. Regrettably my records do not indicate which PF a/c might have been tasked to a mission with the 316th.
The half stripes certainly date the photo after August 44. However, this is NOT Market-Garden.
On extreme magnification the chalk number 1?7 can be seen on the H aircraft 315179 (extreme right). This chalk number is waaay outside the norm for use in an American air drop.
In checking Mike's excellent VALOR WITHOUT ARMS and reference pages 182-183, we find the 316th line up for VARSITY. Unfortunately the specifics for 36th Sqn (4C) are not apparent, but the other three Squadrons are and the number 43-15179 does not appear. Backtracking the number through the other operations we do find it listed in the 36th.
Checking back through the mission for the lead aircraft of the Squadron serials we find 43-30652 flew as a lead aircraft with the 37th. (W7) This again, is most likely to be a 717C equipped plane.
Nancy also provided me an absolutely beautiful port side profile of 652 with 717C radar perfectly profiled, and most significantly the large black blotch just aft of the cockpit and the crisp coding 4C for the 36th TCS applied.
It is apparent that 652 was transferred "in house" from the 37th to the 36th and performed lead/PF duties with the new Squadron. The 37th code W7 was painted out and 4C applied in its place.
I believe that the farthest distant a/c (third from left) is 652 which carries radio call letter "N".
Based on Mike's extensive research--and the lack of detail in his listings for the 36th TCS on pages 182 and 183, I say that this photo is of the 36th enroute to VARSITY.
This is further corroborated by the chalk number. The 36th carried chalks 141-160 on VARSITY and it was carrying BRITS! The extreme magnification appears to be Chalk 1-3-7, but 3's are often "garbled" as a 5, so this could well be chalk 157 which is in the realm of the 36th chalk numbers. This serial was carrying BRITISH troops--5th Abn Bde HQ/ 13th ParaBn.
I have advised Nancy and Mike of my findings and they agree.
43-15179 was lost flying with 316th on 3APR45---Lt Leo White pilot--Col Berger flying as co-pilot. Berger was KIA.
43-30652 is still flying with the Historic Aircraft Group out of Geneseo, NY.
Problem solved. Please make pencil notations to all your C-47 and Market-Garden books which have mis-identified this picture as OM-G.
Dave Berry
PFHISTCONSULTANT@aol.com
www.PathfinderHistoricalConsultants.com
Re: C-47s OP Market Garden
Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:02 pm
Thanks to all who replied off forum. This is a great venue. I hope WIX has solved their change-over problems. Haven't been able to post as I kept getting identity errors!
Re: ????
Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:11 pm
Jack Cook wrote:It's easy sometimes to view C-47s has none combatants but that was so very far from the truth!!!!
I think it's just a euphemism for 'Sorry fellas...didn't give ya anything to shoot back with!'